Stop Microsoft
Miscellaneous => The Lounge => Topic started by: GoStarSu on 11 September 2003, 02:27
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Hey - I'm in the process of building my own Gaming PC and I was hoping to get some feedback from some Computer gosu's who knew their stuff:
CPU - p4 3.0 GHz w/ 800fsp
Motherboard - Intel i875
Video Card - 5900 Ultra [or Radeon 7900 (exact name?)]
Sound Card - Audigy 2
Monitor - 19" regular
Mouse - Mx500 (current one)
Keyboard - Internet (current one)
Hard Drive - WD Cavier 200 GB serial ata 10000 rpm
Memory - ddr 400 maybe 512
Speakers - Creative MW 650 6.1
CD/DVD - DVD RW+ 4x/2x
*Extras* - 400 watt PSU
I'm not even sure if I got half of these names correct because they're off the top of my head but if you can think of anything better (that isn't ridiculously expensive) please let me know. Any suggestions, add ons, or ideas please post them so I can build a dream gaming PC. Thanks.
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Uh, OK. That looks great, but what OS are you going to install on it?
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Well, from a glance, everything looks pretty much in order, but I do have a few questions and suggestions...
First, for the processor... I would recommend dropping that to a 2.8Ghz P4 with the 800Mhz FSB. If you're concerned about price, that will save you an easy $120 while barely lowering performance.
Second, there is no Radeon 7900. If you're looking for one of the higher end Radeons, you're probably thinking of the 9700 or it's sucessor, the 9800.
The last question I have is why a DVD+RW? Unless there's a specific reason you want a +RW drive only, I would strongly suggest going for a DVD-RW drive since it's more standardized and compatible or going with a DVD+/-RW/RAM drive for full compatibility with all of the competing standards, so no matter how the dust settles you won't be left with a dead standard.
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Thanks Vincent, that's especially what I needed to hear. I was unsure about a few of my selections and that helps clear things up. I think I want to go with the Radeon 9700 or 9800 (depending on price) for my Vid Card and I'll take your suggestion on the processor since it will help me save $. Also, I am not exactly sure why I wanted a DVD+RW, but I guess I went wrong their and I'll stick to the DVD-RW.
Thanks to you too Laukev7: Defender of Canada -- BTW, I was planning on installing Windows XP.
Also, one final note - where should I order this stuff from? I am definetly staying away from Compaq from personal experience, so do you think Dell would be a good idea or what? I'm a bit illeterate on where to purchase the products from for the cheapest prices.
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If your gonna install a windowz, might I suggest win2k profesional. It's much nicer than XP, leaner, and faster. It also seems more stable.
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If you're going to install only a Windows I suggest you take "phuck Microsoft" out of your sig because you don't have the balls to stick to your principles.
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quote:
If your gonna install a windowz, might I suggest win2k profesional. It's much nicer than XP, leaner, and faster. It also seems more stable.
Win2k is generally more stable, but if you're going to be playing a wide selection of games (both new and older), I would recommend XP simply for the more forgiving Win9x compatibility layer.
Another option would be to run WineX under Linux, but performance would take a pretty heavy hit and as with all forms of emulation, 100% compatibility is far from guarenteed.
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Wine is not an emulator, and for open gl it works pretty damn fast.
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I prefer the AMD processors. And i would suggest (this is if you really need windows.. which you may) install Mandrake Gaming Edition alongside whatever windows those other people suggest (i've almost forgotten the versions of windows).
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Thanks for all the replies. I think I have a good idea of what I want but if anyone still has any ideas or upgrades to what I currently have, just let me know. Thanks again.
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I don't think you'll need that huge of a hard drive though
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Instead of the i875 you should get an i865PE w/PAT enabled board like the Asus P4P800 Deluxe. It is every bit as fast as an i875 board at a much lower cost.
Oh, and for the people suggesting that you install Win2K. That is fine and dandy and all....Win2k doesn't suppor Hyperthreading technology(virtual 2nd CPU). Windows XP will fly on that thing. I know because I have something similar to what you are getting ready to build. The only difference is I have a 2.4c ghz...but I have that puppy overclocked to 3.2ghz as we speak. When you get such a fast rig the last thing you have to worry about is the performance of your OS because when your machine is so fast it really doesn't matter(it won't be sluggish no matter what you throw on there). Windows XP will actually be faster and more efficient on that rig than Win2K simply because of the hyperthreading support(that virtual 2nd CPU really decreases the load on your main CPU no matter what you are running...wether it be a game, an encoding app, etc.).
The Asus P4P800 Deluxe is a great board. Quite frankly, I think you would be better off getting a 2.4c and overclocking it instead of paying the higher price for the 2.8 or 3ghz. They all use the same core with the same stepping and they are all capable of [email protected]+.
Not only do I have my CPU overclocked that high but my PCI buses, AGP bus and my Ram are still running in spec(thanks to the fact that it allows you to overclock only the components you choose). It never gets hotter than 45c under full load(for several hours). It is very stable and it is really fast. These are benchies of when I had it running @ 3.12ghz.
Anyways, look at this shit.
(http://zombie9920.homestead.com/files/cpuarithmatic.jpg)
(http://zombie9920.homestead.com/files/cpumultimedia.jpg)
(http://zombie9920.homestead.com/files/memorybandwidth.jpg)
(http://zombie9920.homestead.com/files/memoryperformance.jpg)
As you can see, there is virtually no difference in performance between the i865PE w/PAT enabled and the i875. PAT is not supposed to be enabled on the i865 because if it was on all i865 boards there would be no market for the i875 because that is the only difference between the i875 and i865. The nice folks at Asus were kind enough to mod thier BIOS to allow PAT on thier i865 boards making them virtually identicle to the i875 boards. (http://smile.gif)
Also, if you don't notice....that 2.4c ghz P4 is easily overclockable to contend with the highest end P4. The difference is the 2.4c is only $170 compared to that 3.2c ghz that it is contending with is $600+. Not bad, eh?
(http://zombie9921.homestead.com/files/b4.jpg)
As you can see, the CPU is the only thing overclocked. The rest of the buses and stuff are running in spec. The CPU can handle the overclock because the D1 stepping core of the P4c is designed to run at 3ghz+. They only reduce the multiplier in the 2.4c so they can sell it as a budget chip......but it is no different than the high end P4c's meaning that it is designed to where it can run at such high speeds with no error, no added heat, no stability costs, etc. It runs perfectly normal@ such a high speed. That is the reason why when you go to sites like http://www.newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com) the P4 2.4c Ghz is thier top selling CPU. Most overclockers know what the 2.4 can really do.
You should really go the 2.4c+i865PE route. You will save hundreds of $$$ for the same performance and reliability. Lets not forget to mention that it creams anything that AMD has to offer too. (http://smile.gif)
(EDIT)I see you are wanting this to be your dream gaming machine. Let me just say...with my rig, I have a GeForce FX 5900 Ultra in it and I couldn't be happier with my gaming performance. I even stuck a GeForce 4 Ti4200 in it for shits and giggles and it ran games pretty well on that not top of the line video card(in 1024x768 -1280x1024 depending on the game in high detail) because the system is so fast. If you pair your system up with a GeForce FX 5900/5900 Ultra or a Radeon 9700 Pro/Radeon 9800 Pro you are pretty much garanteed that you will not need an upgrade for a long time.
[ September 11, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]
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As a matter of fact, take a look at this thread. This guy(Fignewton) took my advice and he is very satisfied. He hasn't even overclocked his 2.4c yet. ;P Most importantly look at reply #48 on the 4th page of the thread. That is a comment on his gaming performance. ;P
http://www.forumplanet.com/planethardware/topic.asp?fid=3709&tid=1141938&p=1 (http://www.forumplanet.com/planethardware/topic.asp?fid=3709&tid=1141938&p=1)
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the only thing i can add is synergy and cooling.
you want to matchup fsb speeds with ram speed and such. then 1+1=11 instead of 2. also make sure you account for cooling needs. especially if you overclock. pentiums are great for cooling needs but also think about ram and video. it all works better the cooler it gets.
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quote:
Originally posted by avello500:
the only thing i can add is synergy and cooling.
you want to matchup fsb speeds with ram speed and such. then 1+1=11 instead of 2. also make sure you account for cooling needs. especially if you overclock. pentiums are great for cooling needs but also think about ram and video. it all works better the cooler it gets.
The Ram and video card don't run any hotter on an i865 or i875 chipset when you overclock if you keep the Ram and PCI/AGP busses in spec. They are all still running the way they are supposed to be running.
The CPU doesn't really get any hotter(maybe 1 or 2 degrees Celcius..thats it) when you overclock a P4c due to the fact that the core of the P4c is designed to run at those 3ghz+ speeds. a 2.4c, 2.8c, 3.0c and 3.2c are all essentially the same. The only difference between them is the multiplier and the marking on the CPU. Internally they are all the same CPU with the same speed capabilities. If you take a 2.4c, 2.8c, 3.0c or a 3.2c past 3.4ghz that is when you start seeing some major increases in temps and the loss of stability. The D1 stepping core is not designed for faster than 3.4ghz.(the upcoming Prescott will be designed to run faster than 3.4ghz though).
[ September 11, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]
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Here's my expert advise:
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GoStarSu: p4 3.0 GHz w/ 800fsp
Nope, get an AMD Athlon XP.
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GoStarSu: Intel i875
Nope, get an ASUS motherboard with a nForce chipset.
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GoStarSu: 5900 Ultra
Unless you like crappy drivers, I suggest a GeForce FX.
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GoStarSu: Audigy 2
Finally, your first good choice.
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GoStarSu: 19" regular
You mean CRT right? Well... good choice.
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GoStarSu: Mx500
I guess so...
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GoStarSu: Internet
I like an old non-bloated keyboard from 1996 better, but some people like that RSI-friendly crap. I guess you're one of them (http://smile.gif) well, keep it.
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GoStarSu: WD Cavier 200 GB serial ata 10000 rpm
I have no idea why you need all that extra GB, but it's a good choice anyways.
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GoStarSu: ddr 400 maybe 512
Maybe you should spend less on GB, and more on RAM :D
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GoStarSu: Creative MW 650 6.1
Of all the speakers I've seen, those are kick ass. Be careful not to make it your neighboor's nightmare (http://tongue.gif)
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GoStarSu: DVD RW+ 4x/2x
With all that extra GB, you won't need to directly burn from CD to CD, so a DVD-ROM/DVD-RW combination is a very good choice. Pick one that's durable (that means anything but Philips and Lite-on).
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GoStarSu: 400 watt PSU
Be careful with it. If your parents aren't that rich, they'll be very strict on electricity, and when they get the bill, and it's high, you're going spend a helluva less time on your PC (http://tongue.gif)
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how about this
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1.6GHz IBM PPC970 on 800MHz bus
1GB DDR333
160GB and 80GB Serial ATA HDs
20GB HD (Firewire)
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CDRW)
CDRW (Firewire)
GeForce FX 5200
it's better because it'll never run Windows
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In reply to Refalm,
LoL, did you see how badly the Pentium 4's whoop up on the fastest Athlon XP(3200+). Also, look at the memory benchies...look at how badly the i865/i875 whoops up on the NForce 2.
You would be nuts to buy an AXP. Besides, Athlons run so freaking hot that you need a ton of loud ass fans(including the fan on the HSF) for it to operate decently. Athlons also run the risk of burning up if something should ever happen to the HSF unit(it is hit or miss when you trust the board auto shutoff). With a P4 you can literally run it with no HSF at...it will underclock itself when it gets so hot if you do that but it will continue to run rock solid. You don't need fans that run over 2300 RPM with a P4. 2300 RPM fans are pretty quiet...especially compared to those 7000+ RPM fans used for Athlon systems. Not everybody wants thier fucking computer to sound like a jet engine. Some people would rather hear thier music, thier games or have peace and quiet for concentration when they are doing thier work.
Intel = Quality products
AMD = Cheaply made generic product
Go with the P4c man, you won't regret it. Not only is it more reliable, but it is faster, runs alot cooler, will never burn up and obviously the chipset you are going to pair it with is the fastest x86 chipset to date. Nothing on the x86 side is more reliable than a Intel CPU on an Intel chipset.
For the vid card. The 5900 Ultra is a GeForce FX. =0P
The FX is a good choice. I would get it over a Radeon due to the fact that I've had bad luck with ATI's shitty drivers for thier Radeons in the past(with a 8500 the first time and a 9700 Pro the second time I tried a Radeon). Different people have different experiences though.
For the DVD burner. DVD-RW isn't really good enough if you ask me. You need a burner that can burn DVD+RW(if it can do other formats that is great). Alot of DVD players don't even like to read DVD-RW discs at all but the DVD players that can read both tend to read DVD+RW alot better(faster) than they do DVD-RW.
For the keyboard comment. I like my Logitech Internet Navigator keyboard mainly because of the Media player buttons and the scroll wheel on it. The media player control is nice because you can change tracks, pause your music, stop your music, mute the music, adjust volume etc. with it while you are playing a game in full screen(in alot of cases I tend to disable the games music in favor of listening to my own CD's and MP3's on a media player). It looks a heck of alot nicer thna a plain-jane keyboard as well. Why somebody would want an ugly keyboard paired up with a nice-new system is beyond me. Sure, the extra buttons(like the media player buttons) don't work in Linux...but that is no big loss. The games I play only run in Windows anyways. The ones that actually do run in Linux I prefer to play in Windows due to the fact that I can get better image quality in Windows(I have full control of what my video card can do).
To Jimmy James,
You recommended a Mac for a dream gaming machine? ROFLMFAO. Is that supposed to be a funny joke?
[ September 11, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]
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Yeah Verily. Of the mumtimedia keyboards I've tried, Logitechs have the best software too, which many people don't think about before buying a keyboard. Those keys aren't worth shit if they don't do what they're supposed to do, and you con't change them to do what you want them to do.
Besides, I've heard of people using the extra buttons in Linux, though I've yet to get it working myself.
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To Jimmy James,
You recommended a Mac for a dream gaming machine? ROFLMFAO. Is that supposed to be a funny joke?
What? And x86 isn't a joke? :D
To play games on a peecee means Windoze. I don't go for that. Sure there's transgaming, but I'd rather wait a month or two to get Aspyr's Mac port which gives me full performance rather than fuck around with WineX. Besides, by the time the game is ported, all the bugs are typically worked out. Running a game on Windows means you've got all of the problems of a MS OS to deal with. Running the games in WineX means that you might as well have an NES.
I'll put my G5 against your peecee, and you can experience the negligible difference in performance.
"Oh wow! You got 5 more FPS than me. Whoop dee shit."
And then we can do something real like multimedia editing and the P4 is gonna DIE.
Sorry, if peecees were better at things that mattered, I'd have gotten one, but since they're inferior for multimedia, I'll stick to my real computers.
BTW, nothing personal against you. I've just had a shitty day. If I come over as a dickhead, it's because right now, I am one
:mad:
No offense meant by nothin
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5 FPS difference my ass. The video card in your recommended Mac config(the GeForce FX 5200) couldn't hang with even a 1ghz PIII/Athlon T-Bird with a GeForce FX 5600 Ultra let alone a high end P4/Athlon with a GeForce FX 5900 Ultra or Radeon 9700 Pro/9800 Pro.
The FX 5200 is just a piece of trash(well it is good for low end gaming). I guess you don't really need a high-end card in a Mac though because you can count the hit games released for Mac on 2 hands(maybe just 1). :lol:
I don't know where you get the PC sucks at multimedia stuff. Sure the G5 is fast...but so is a Hyperthreading enabled P4 on an 800mhz FSB. Multimedia stuff support the virtual second CPU(in hyperthreading mode) and the stuff supports SSE2.
Rigt now I can encode a 1 1/2 hour video in MPEG 4 in less than 40 minutes. That is pretty damn good considering that on a high-end Athlon it would take over an hour and a half to encode that same vid. I don't know what kind of an encoding time a MAc would score with that same vid...but I don't see it being much faster than what the P4 can do. It takes less than 30 seconds to encode a 6 minute audio track in MP3, Wav or WMA. I have never tried encoding in Vorbis format so I don't know how that performs. I'm sure it would be pretty quick as well though.
Photoshop uses SSE2. On an 800mhz FSB beast w/SSE2 you can convert a large image, apply a filter to a large image, etc. relativatley quick. I plyed around with a 400MB image and my system was able to apply filters, convert the image to different formats, etc. in like a minute and a half(give or take a few seconds).
I know that I'm not complaining about my systems multimedia capabilites. If the G5 happens to be a few seconds faster...so what? I know I'm not going to pay no $2,500+ for a computer just because it can do multimedia related stuff a few seconds faster than what I can custom build for less than $850. That $850 system has a high end everything(including video card) that would run rings around that $2,500+ system in games and anything else that involes 3D graphics. Lets not forget to mention that that $850 system uses the most commonly used, defacto architecture that all of the game makers release thier stuff for.
With that $2,500+ system you are lucky to get equivalents to the rage of the gaming world titles for that system in a year, 2 years, etc.
Heck, the software for the Mac is so limited that there are only a few Linux distros that are even made for the Mac. That is bad considering that in the x86 world there are hundreds of Linux distros out there and Linux distro suppliers are out for digital world domination.
Do you know why there isn't nearly as much software for a Mac as there is for the PC? Because there is such a small user base. There are less people who use Macs worldwide than people who use Linux in just the United States alone. Linux surpassed apple in user base over a year ago. Yeah....Macs are such great machines...just kidding. They are just overpriced computers.
[ September 12, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]
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ou can count the hit games released for Mac on 2 hands(maybe just 1). :lol:
http://www.aspyr.com/games.php/mac/ (http://www.aspyr.com/games.php/mac/)
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I don't know where you get the PC sucks at multimedia stuff. Sure the G5 is fast...but so is a Hyperthreading enabled P4 on an 800mhz FSB. Multimedia stuff support the virtual second CPU(in hyperthreading mode) and the stuff supports SSE2.
Hyperthreading is the only truly amazing tech that Intel has. I simply can't argue that point. Luckily, though, IBM plans an upcoming revision of the 970 to use a similar technology, based on Power5's hyperthreading-like capabilities.
SSE? FEH!
I record audio and apply real-time effects using Bias Peak 4, and then use software Reason 2 to create synth and orchestral backing, and finally build a song with Pro Tools TDM. Sure, you can get all those for Windows... but... it's Windows. And that's the core of the argument. You've been around long enough to know that, man!
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Photoshop uses SSE2
Photoshop uses AltiVec
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Heck, the software for the Mac is so limited that there are only a few Linux distros that are even made for the Mac. That is bad considering that in the x86 world there are hundreds of Linux distros out there and Linux distro suppliers are out for digital world domination.
Wow, I've always worried about the lack of Linux distros, seeing as my OS is better. As for software, I seem to have no problem finding software that I want and need. I guess it's the difference in getting to choose between two or three high quailty spreadsheets or getting to choose between several hundred shitty ass ones.
I guess the fact that the X-Box has less games than other machines makes it less viable.
Wow. Logic is fun and...
Something true (http://home.alltel.net/redrocker/images/sux.jpg)
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Viper - check your private messages. Thx.
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Granted, those games on that page you linked to are decent games. However, I noticed that most of them are pre-order(meaning they are not even released yet)...but they have been available for the PC for over several months. Take 007 Nightfire for instance. I've had that game for at least 5 months now(if not longer). Splinter Cell has been available on the PC for a minute(thats an expression for a while), Rainbow Six 3......well we already have had the Raven Shield version of it for a while now, there was just an Athena's Sword version of it released at the beginning of this month(Sept. 1st). Are you seeing a pattern here?
Anyways, in the PC world none of those games are considered the hot rage of the gaming world. They are good, yeah...but they are kind of old.
We are looking forward to the upcoming titles like
Half Life 2(there is already a leaked Beta on the net)
Halo for the PC(there is already a leaked Beta on the net)
Max Payne 2(there is already a leaked Beta on the net)
Need For Speed: Underground
Tribes: Vengeance
Lord of Everquest
Etherlords II
etc.
Doom 3 would be on there but ID Software has supposedly delayed the game until next year. :(
Right now we are enjoying hot titles like
Midnight Club 2
Auquanox 2: Revelation
Cold Zero: The Last Stand
Savage: The Battle for Newerth
Battlefield 1942: Secret Weapons of WWII
The Great Escape
Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (It finally made it to PC)
Enter the Matrix
Majestic Chess(it isn't really a hot title for anybody but chess fans)
etc.
Anyways...I am really surprised to see so many of the what used to be hot recent titles being ported to the Mac, but it still isn't enough to detour a gamer to the Mac platform because like I already said...those games are actually getting old. I think I would dread to see how something like Nightfire looks on the Mac since the Mac doesn't support DirectX meaning that the game won't be using the Pixel Shaders, Advanced Pixel Shaders, advanced Environmental Bump Mapping, and Vertex shaders.
I do have 1 question though. Does Aspyr Media port the PC games to the Mac or are they just selling them or what? I know that they are not the original makers of the games. Example, 007 Nightfire was originally made by Electronic Arts(EA Games).
Out of all of the ports for the Mac I can't believe that there aren't any Grand Theft Auto 3/GTA Vice City, No One Lives Forever/NOLF 2, Max Payne, Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit 2, Aquanox, Midnight Club, etc. ports already available or being made.
In reply to GoStarSu,
I'll check it. Be expecting a reply shortly.
[ September 13, 2003: Message edited by: Viper ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Viper:
Right now we are enjoying hot titles like
Max Payne 2
Midnight Club 2
Auquanox 2: Revelation
Cold Zero: The Last Stand
Savage: The Battle for Newerth
Battlefield 1942: Secret Weapons of WWII
The Great Escape
Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (It finally made it to PC)
Majestic Chess(it isn't really a hot title for anybody but chess fans)
...And for a measely $19.95/month, we will be happy to ship you the CDs to you EVERY MONTH! Just think! The GREATEST titles from Home Depot! Learn how to fix your sink! How to carpet your living room! It's all there!
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quote:
Originally posted by TheQuirk:
...And for a measely $19.95/month, we will be happy to ship you the CDs to you EVERY MONTH! Just think! The GREATEST titles from Home Depot! Learn how to fix your sink! How to carpet your living room! It's all there!
(http://www.neowin.net/forum/html/emoticons/blink.gif)
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The newest games usually don't make it over for a month or two, sometimes upwards of six or eight, depending on how entwined with DirectX the game is. Unreal Tourney 2K3 has just recently been released, about 8 months late, I believe. Anything built on an already-ported engine gets out pretty quick. Jedi Outcast was only about 3 weeks late, and Elite Force was out the same day I think.
The point isn't that Macs are great game machines... they're not. But we're also not completely lacking either. Remember, though... I never said that the G5 was a good game box ;)
As for the upcoming titles, I have no doubt, they'll get ported if they're successful at all. We'll be seeing Max Payne 2 (about damn time!) and Halo for sure.
As for what Aspyr does, I do believe they do the porting, as well as carry the responsibility for marketing the Mac port. Patches come from them, and they provide all support for it, as well.
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You didn't outright say it, but you did indirectly when you recommend a Mac when the first poster said he was building a gaming machine.
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but I'm able to do that, eh? I mean, what I do things like that really mean? it depends on your point of view, doesn't it, mate? You see, when things come along that allow the constant of the universe to be altered, I take those things. I love having the lost diamonds of King Jesus of Belarus.
The pizza is round! Super Dave Osbourne is bigger than your pet terrier. Margaret Thatcher is not a food group.
Remember those few things and your life will be made terrible. When Colonel Klink killed Mr. Boddy on the Bridge with the Revolverstick, and nobody was around, did the moatmonster make a noise?
Ah, to be young again.
[ September 13, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy James is COOL ]