Stop Microsoft
Miscellaneous => The Lounge => Topic started by: billy_gates on 31 August 2003, 05:38
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A couple of the websites I visit. mainly www.xboxmediaplayer.de (http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de) have gone into some sort of protes thing against what the EU is trying to do about software patents or something.
My question is why are the people shutting down their sites to protest, why can't they just vote like normal people. They can also stop investing money in patented software. But stop fucking protesting you long haired tree hugging liberal hippies!
God damn it, I don't like Protestors. They don't get anything done, and their protests almost always turn out violent and dangerous.
I am a capitalist. When it comes to business there is only one way to vote. With your wallet. Now this mixes politics with business. So now there are 2 ways to vote. A ballot (I would assume contacting your representative, although not sure how people in europe are represented) and with your wallet. I highly doubt protesting it going to do anything. And it esecially isn't when the people that protest have shut down the sites that the businesses want them to close cus they give free stuff away.
Just my 2c
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Calum is gonna tear you limb from limb now.
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quote:
Originally posted by Macman:
Calum is gonna tear you limb from limb now.
now that I am of write mind... let me "fix" some my statements.
The long haired tree hugging liberals hippes... just change that to liberals
The part that says they don't get anything done... add (usually)
thats about it. The rest, to my best knowledge is true.
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isn't this site a bit of a protest to microsoft
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
A couple of the websites I visit. mainly www.xboxmediaplayer.de (http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de) have gone into some sort of protes thing against what the EU is trying to do about software patents or something.
My question is why are the people shutting down their sites to protest, why can't they just vote like normal people. They can also stop investing money in patented software. But stop fucking protesting you long haired tree hugging liberal hippies!
God damn it, I don't like Protestors. They don't get anything done, and their protests almost always turn out violent and dangerous.
I am a capitalist. When it comes to business there is only one way to vote. With your wallet. Now this mixes politics with business. So now there are 2 ways to vote. A ballot (I would assume contacting your representative, although not sure how people in europe are represented) and with your wallet. I highly doubt protesting it going to do anything. And it esecially isn't when the people that protest have shut down the sites that the businesses want them to close cus they give free stuff away.
Just my 2c
Your a good "American"
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dude! I thought that hanging out here and associating with people like me would show you... PROTESTS ARE COOL!
See, the protest needs to become real. There needs to be picketing and speeches and the like to go along with this, but nobody ever organizes that. Business and the government don't see the Internet as "real", except when it's convenient for them. Therefore, an internet protest means nothing. We need real protests in the streets, telling them what is meant and what the consequences of failure are.
We need a way for the people to censure government and business FOR REAL. "voting with wallets" isn't enough... if business is going to be the 5th branch of government (right behind the military) then they need a way to be FULLY ACCOUNTABLE for their fuckups.
What say you guys? A system where the people could vote that a business be disbanded? Their assets seized, distributed among the community? Their executives incarcerated, and while behind bars, have to pay for their former employees to live?
I LIKE THIS IDEA AND YOU SHOULD TOO.
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God damn it, I don't like Protestors. They don't get anything done, and their protests almost always turn out violent and dangerous.
Yeah fuck that Ghandi guy. Fucking hippy. So you're saying that even if we believe that something wrong is happening that we should just shut up and wait four years to let it keep happening? Are you saying the Jews should have just "shut up and vote like normal people" when the Nazi regime came along? What happens when a government doesn't care about a minorities vote? Should black people in America have just "shut up and voted" about segregation even though they knew they were in a minority? What about those black and or jewish Florida residents who got excluded from voting because Bush didn't want them to? They can't vote should they protest? What about Iraqis who have no right to vote? Protesting allowed by his majesty then?
Unlike you you little Hitler fucktard I've actually been to protests. "Usually turn violent" my fucking arse, get a clue.
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When it comes to business there is only one way to vote. With your wallet.
What about poor people you fuck? And isn't not buying Microsoft products (voting with your wallet) a kind of protest? Like suse said, you're a "good American." Not much of a moralist though.
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What say you guys? A system where the people could vote that a business be disbanded? Their assets seized, distributed among the community? Their executives incarcerated, and while behind bars, have to pay for their former employees to live?
I LIKE THIS IDEA AND YOU SHOULD TOO.
I like it, but this would not solve our microsoft problems since the majority of americans aren't aware of how dangerous MS is. Also, if people in America did manage to get MS disbanded, think of the reprecussions that would have on other countries, especially with Microsoft. It wouldn't work, but it would be nice if it did.
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Yeah fuck that Ghandi guy. Fucking hippy. So you're saying that even if we believe that something wrong is happening that we should just shut up and wait four years to let it keep happening? Are you saying the Jews should have just "shut up and vote like normal people" when the Nazi regime came along? What happens when a government doesn't care about a minorities vote? Should black people in America have just "shut up and voted" about segregation even though they knew they were in a minority? What about those black and or jewish Florida residents who got excluded from voting because Bush didn't want them to? They can't vote should they protest? What about Iraqis who have no right to vote? Protesting allowed by his majesty then?
Unlike you you little Hitler fucktard I've actually been to protests. "Usually turn violent" my fucking arse, get a clue.
Right the fuck on. (http://smile.gif)
Protests prevent the government from impinging too deeply on the rights of citizens in the geopolitical matrix.
A quote that supports (rather, immortalizes) the concept of individuals "going against the grain" as a BOLSTER to the advance of human kind, rather than a barrier:
"Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire. He was probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to light. He was considered an evildoer who had dealt with a demon mankind dreaded. But thereafter men had fire to keep them warm, to cook their food, to light their caves. He had left them a gift they had not conceived and he had lifted darkness off the earth. Centuries later, the first man invented the wheel. He was probably torn on the rack he had taught his brothers to build. He was considered a transgressor who ventured into forbidden territory. But thereafter, men could travel past any horizon. He had left them a gift they had not conceived and he had opened the roads of the world.
"That man, the unsubmissive and first, stands in the opening chapter of every legend mankind has recorded about its beginning. Prometheus was chained to a rock and torn by vultures--because he had stolen the fire of the gods. Adam was condemned to suffer--because he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Whatever the legend, somewhere in the shadows of its memory mankind knew that its glory began with one and that that one paid for his courage.
"Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their own vision. Their goals differed, but they all had this in common: that the step was first, the road new, the vision unborrowed, and the response they received--hatred. The great creators--the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors--stood alone against the men of their time. Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won."
--Ayn Rand
Full quote here. (http://homepage.mac.com/citizensane/hr.rtf)
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My question is why are the people shutting down their sites to protest, why can't they just vote like normal people.
So it worked eh??? I mean even you noticed what's going on now. :D
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They can also stop investing money in patented software. But stop fucking protesting you long haired tree hugging liberal hippies!
God damn it, I don't like Protestors. They don't get anything done, and their protests almost always turn out violent and dangerous.
No they "turn out violent and dangerous" when Nazi, jackbotted "Policemen" start beatting and kicking them. I'ts called self defense,
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I am a capitalist. When it comes to business there is only one way to vote. With your wallet. Now this mixes politics with business. So now there are 2 ways to vote. A ballot (I would assume contacting your representative, although not sure how people in europe are represented) and with your wallet. I highly doubt protesting it going to do anything. And it esecially isn't when the people that protest have shut down the sites that the businesses want them to close cus they give free stuff away.
Great I'm happy for you, being a capitalist you'd realize then that to maintain a healthy state of Capitalism requires diversity, dynamism and competition. Certain large companies in this world would like to turn your happy state of Capitalism into some form of econonmic dictatorship, that's what these people are protesting against.
So you're wrong to say that protesting doesn't work, I've e-mailed my local MEP's (Minister of Europen Parliament) and they also seems a bit anixious about letting this law pass. Heaven forbid that we are lead into the same farcical, idiotic situation that you now find yourself in the USA.
Apart from the fact that you knew nothing about the EU change in patent law, you visit a website that was participating, hey presto, now you know all about it....
I'd call that a success
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quote:
Originally posted by Faust:
Yeah fuck that Ghandi guy. Fucking hippy. So you're saying that even if we believe that something wrong is happening that we should just shut up and wait four years to let it keep happening? Are you saying the Jews should have just "shut up and vote like normal people" when the Nazi regime came along? What happens when a government doesn't care about a minorities vote? Should black people in America have just "shut up and voted" about segregation even though they knew they were in a minority? What about those black and or jewish Florida residents who got excluded from voting because Bush didn't want them to? They can't vote should they protest? What about Iraqis who have no right to vote? Protesting allowed by his majesty then?
Unlike you you little Hitler fucktard I've actually been to protests. "Usually turn violent" my fucking arse, get a clue.
this kind of attack was the exact reason I fixed this statement on the third post.
"Add (Usually)"
Ghandi and The Civil Rights Movement are very good examples of proper protesting. But remember, they took YEARS to do this and were completely peacful.
Now if we all get into a protest against MS then we will probably have signs and walking in a circle at MS campus. We are now the violent ones. We are now trying to DESTROY a company, that is violent. Not to mention we would probably beat eachother sensless too.
I do not consider myself protesting because I have not paused my life to visit this web site or post on these forums. I do this in my extra time. Protesting is when you pause your life, shut down your website, or quit your job to go stand somewhere with signs yelling and hurting people and vomiting on the entrances to buildings.
Also, about the people in florida not getting a vote:
if you can't punch the card properly you do not DESERVE to vote. If you are so STUPID that you can't properly punch a card then your vote shouldn't count.
I have also NEVER heard anything about any specific religion not getting a vote in florida. It seemed to me only stupid people didn't get a vote. (do u have an article to back this one up?)
And you're right suse I am a good American... not a perfect American... I am not blinded by patriotism, i just support my overly elaborate and luxurious American way of life.
And Faust the lack of morals towards helping others when they should help themselves comes with the republican territory.
oh ya LOWER TAXES and CUT FUNDING ;)
[ August 31, 2003: Message edited by: jeffberg: Mac Capitalist ]
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No the correct response was tax the rich to all buggery and then let people have a decent health care system. Who decides who is allowed to protest anyway? You? You think normal protestors are bad and Gandhi is allowable, but how do you know before hand what protests to ban? The US was founded on protest and letting the opressed have a chance - it's a pity a few misguided morons have decided to think that protesting what you think is wrong a dirty thing.
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By the way if an individual decides to protest on THEIR site who are you to complain? Make your own site if you want you freeloading communist hippy. :D
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We are now trying to DESTROY a company, that is violent.
Ghandi tried to DESTROY british occupation, thats violent and must be disallowed. South Africans tried to violently end aparteid and DESTROY it, what violent fuckers we shoulda put down that little rebellion huh?
Re:Zardoz
Yeah we get violent cops too. And hey, when it goes bad guess who gets blamed? Certainly not the cops. At some protests towards the end of 2001 (s11 protests - completely unrelated to the NY tragedy cos it hadnt happened yet) cops rode horses into the crowd. What gets put on the TV? "Violent protestors attack police horses." Of course horses will balk you dumb fucks, they dont exactly like trampling living people...
Oh and Jeffberg I'm so glad to hear that protesting involves "significant amounts of time."
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I do this in my extra time.
I see now that protesting anything less than once a week isnt real protesting and is thus allowable by lord Jeffberg. (http://smile.gif)
Face it dude the only reason you're upset is because two minutes of your "valuable" time got wasted by someone who wanted you to think.
[ August 31, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]
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protest:
1 an objection or disapproval
2 to object or disaprove
3 to state strongly or positively
Jeffberg:
objects and disapproves of microsoft software
states so strongly
Jeffberg is thus a filthy communist protestor and makes me sick to my stomache. (http://smile.gif) How dare he express an opinion!
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Originally posted by Faust:
freeloading communist hippy.
hmmm.. wrong end of the spectrum, you should of said fasciest nazi
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I see now that protesting anything less than once a week isnt real protesting and is thus allowable by lord Jeffberg.
I am not protestin. I am not trying to change anything, its just fun to talk with people with similar interests (and dis interests)
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Face it dude the only reason you're upset is because two minutes of your "valuable" time got wasted by someone who wanted you to think.
your right, i am upset because people are wasting my time. I hate that. However when I went to his site and saw the protest I didn't read about it, cus I don't care. He may have wanted me to think and maybe if it applied to me I would have read further and decided how to continue but shutting down one of my sites would not be how I would have done it.
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Ghandi tried to DESTROY british occupation, thats violent and must be disallowed. South Africans tried to violently end aparteid and DESTROY it, what violent fuckers we shoulda put down that little rebellion huh?
The people ghandi was protesting were hurting and killing them? What has Microsoft ever done to you? Made you buy shitty software. Ghandi and Martin Luther (just 2 examples) were being beaten and killed. Microsoft is not doing anything nearly as serious as this to you. And neither will EU software patents. Being killed seems like a good reason to have a very organised, large, and peaceful protest.
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Yeah we get violent cops too. And hey, when it goes bad guess who gets blamed? Certainly not the cops. At some protests towards the end of 2001 (s11 protests - completely unrelated to the NY tragedy cos it hadnt happened yet) cops rode horses into the crowd. What gets put on the TV? "Violent protestors attack police horses." Of course horses will balk you dumb fucks, they dont exactly like trampling living people...
do u think martin luther was never beaten by violent cops? Yet they still didn't get violent. They knew if they got violent then their violence is the only thing the media would show. Martin and Ghandi knew this and knew the solution? Why don't current protestors know this and know the solution?
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No the correct response was tax the rich to all buggery and then let people have a decent health care system.
Get your own damn medical insurance. I have my own. Stop taking money from people who deserve it and giving to people who don't. Who are you to decide that people that are smart and work hard get to lose their money and the people without jobs who will never get one get the money?
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Who decides who is allowed to protest anyway? You? You think normal protestors are bad and Gandhi is allowable, but how do you know before hand what protests to ban? The US was founded on protest and letting the opressed have a chance - it's a pity a few misguided morons have decided to think that protesting what you think is wrong a dirty thing.
Ghandi had a reason to protest. His people were being killed every day for no reason. The Chinese people have a right to protest their blatand human rights violations. How can you even sit there and say that your EU Patent protest even COMPARES to Ghandis and Martin Luthers protests. They were protesting their right to live. You are just whining about how you now have to think of your own ideas for software instead of using someone elses.
I do think people have a right to protest. But the protest does not have to be started before you will know if it is successfull or not. I just ask that before people protest that first they got a lot of people. Second they vow to no violence no matter what. They have the dedication to hold on for YEARS, not days. And they don't go screaming and yelling or blocking traffic or vomiting on entrances to buildings. That they just be a group of people who walk around outside of the place they are protesting. Also they should tell local authorities before doing a protest.
Do you not think those are fair conditions for protesting.
Cus truthfully its not the good protestors that make prosting look bad. It is the bad protestors who make protesting look bad. When you block city traffic, and fucking vomit on building entrances so people can't get in. That is what makes protesting look bad. And because there are a greater number of bad protests to good ones, I look down on protesting as an immature way of expressing your opinion.
Now I am going to back down from this fight. I don't want to anger any more people. I like hanging around here and casually talking about shit. Most of the stuff I read here I don't take seriously. I don't go and tell me friends how evil certain people are. I don't care. I just like socialising with random people from all over the world.
P.S. don't diss America, its not cool. I don't diss the country your from (please don't be from canada). I'm just kidding, there is nothing wrong with canada. I just chose to stay in America and not move. I will tell you though. If I did leave America I would go to switzerland. But every where else has too high of taxes, so I doubt I will be moving.
but seriously don't make fun of someone elses home country. Thats just a way to make a bullshit flame war.
I think I am done. completely,
we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
A couple of the websites I visit. mainly www.xboxmediaplayer.de (http://www.xboxmediaplayer.de) have gone into some sort of protes thing against what the EU is trying to do about software patents or something.
My question is why are the people shutting down their sites to protest, why can't they just vote like normal people. They can also stop investing money in patented software. But stop fucking protesting you long haired tree hugging liberal hippies!
God damn it, I don't like Protestors. They don't get anything done, and their protests almost always turn out violent and dangerous.
I am a capitalist. When it comes to business there is only one way to vote. With your wallet. Now this mixes politics with business. So now there are 2 ways to vote. A ballot (I would assume contacting your representative, although not sure how people in europe are represented) and with your wallet. I highly doubt protesting it going to do anything. And it esecially isn't when the people that protest have shut down the sites that the businesses want them to close cus they give free stuff away.
Just my 2c
christ you are a fuckass.
however i'm not a liberal myself, in fact i say the best way to deal with fuckasses like this is a bullet.
that's the difference between liberalism and my idea of socialism.
now, jeffberg, if you really do give a shit about what this patent thing is all about (although your words make me think this whole topic is simply an ego boost for you to mouth off in about how everybody else is a pinko and you're great), you can read this (http://promote-opensource.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=56), and this one too (http://promote-opensource.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=251). There are some more articles about it on that site also, if you feel you don't have time to read those then shut the fuck up and sit down, because the topic of this thread is after all the EU patents situation, and you damn well better get your facts straight before you mouth off, you fucking yank.
edit: and fucking actually READ the first one, moron (yes i think you need to be told twice) - it explains why your comments about "thinking up your own ideas" are worthy of a one and a half year old tortoise.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: Calum ]
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quote:
christ you are a fuckass.
however i'm not a liberal myself, in fact i say the best way to deal with fuckasses like this is a bullet.
that's the difference between liberalism and my idea of socialism.
Hear hear.
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If patents become ANY more intrusive, the western world is going to turn into a Corperate, facist state.
Heil Bill, mine Furer!
Actually that's a good analogy, because, it's been said, Gemany's best "economic" time was during Hitlers leadership.
[ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: suselinux ]
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It's already done. It's been a few years since USA went from capitalism to defacto corporatism.
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Gah, I don't even know where to start to respond to this one.
First, protesting is not limited to liberals. I remember seeing people on the news protesting against a recount in florida a few years ago. Marching, holding signs and all. Your steroetyping all protesters as "long haired tree hugging liberal hippies" is wrong. And I would expect any sensible person, liberal or conservative to be against American style patents. They make life suck more than it has to for me, for you jeffburg, for laborers andfor business owners alike. The only people who would support these idotic patents are very large corporations who want to stifle competition, and for the lawyers who make oodles from IP lawsuits these patents cause.
You claim to be a capitalist, well I think you should read up on some Adam smith and learn more about capitalism. There are good and bad points of capitalism. And to be a capitalist you should understand what they are, what makes capitalism work and what ruins is. Competition drives capitalism, and anything that stifles competition stifles capitalism too. Society is based on business, and businesses exist for the benefit of society.
When things turn around, and society is made to serve the businesses, competition is crushed in courts by expensive lawyers, and the right to 'innovate' is bought, sold, traded and fought over, capitalism fails. When new business are crushed even before they begin because one group owns a business method, the principals upon which capitalism was founded is crushed as well.
And Jeffburg, let me make a suggestion. If you really love America, instead of blindly following along with whatever America's current leaders serve to you as 'patriotism' and 'American', you take a really good look at what is happening in America today from a broad perspective, and admit to yourself the reality that today America is in the shitter and the whirlpool is spiraling down down down. And from there, work towards getting America back in the right direction again.
V
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Exactly what I think, I couldn't have said it better than you, Doctor V.
I am a bit confused about the patent thing, though. Are patents like that everywhere, or only in the United States? As I said, I always thought they were designed to give the inventor credit and a kickstart in the market, not a lifelong monopoly.
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Originally posted by Laukev7: Defender of Canada:
Exactly what I think, I couldn't have said it better than you, Doctor V.
I am a bit confused about the patent thing, though. Are patents like that everywhere, or only in the United States? As I said, I always thought they were designed to give the inventor credit and a kickstart in the market, not a lifelong monopoly.
I second that...
No we have patents in the UK, infact I think we invented the concept, I think.
Anyway, the point is that patents are being very liberally applied these days, when perhaps copyright should be applied instead. When people start patenting business models, genes, DNA and in the case of software broad blanket coverage then you get into a pickle.
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Jeff, Jeff... WTF?!?
I don't get it man, how can you support this?
"people who are smart and work hard"
You mean the coders and project leaders that make hourly wages and might not have a job come next layoff season? These guys you seem to worship, these "corporate moguls" are far from smart or hard working. The only thing they work hard on his their tan and their belly.
We have a word for these people: PIGOPOLISTS
These are the people that unfortunately run this great nation today. Our government had four branches when it started. Forget what they taught in school, it had four.
Executive
Judicial
Legislative
The People
Through the 1960s or so, it was
Executive
Judicial
Legislative
The People
Military
The U.S. Military made up for a large part of the government's decision making, because anything they did had to be weight *AGAINST WHAT IT WOULD DO TO THE BENEFITS OF OUR PEOPLE SERVING THE NATION*.
Now what's our political landscape look like?
Executive
Corporate
Legislative
Corporate
Judicial
Corporate
No branch of our government is free from corporate meddling. The courts have become corporate enforcers, Bush is a corporate tool (Powell and Rumsfeld need to beat his pansy ass), and Congress is a joke. Corps buy congressmen cheap.
Hey, we'll buy you dinner for a week if you vote yes for the DMCA.
Selling America one lobby at a time. So, this is the great capitalism you uphold?
What a piece of shit way to live it's created. I have to work TWO GODDAMN JOBS these days to even live. I can barely afford to put gas in my car. Putting food on the table is even harder. Keeping bills balanced is Hell... for the last week, I've been taking showers at a friend's place because we COULDN'T PAY THE WATER BILL this month because WE DIDN'T MAKE ENOUGH BECAUSE OF PAY CUTS AT BOTH MY JOBS. (before anyone mentions my recent tech spending, that's because of my grandma getting me ready for school)
Both companies posted higher earnings and profits, but my pay went down. Yeah, good 'ol ass-sucking, cumguzzling capitalfuckingism.
I, personally can condone taking money from the rich to provide health care. As long as it's not inhibting their ability to survive, then, so be it. If it were to severely cut into their cash-flow, then, that *is* unfair. In society, each person must contribute. Laborers contribute THEIR LIVES to working in factories for low pay and shitty benefits. Unions came along and helped that, but now the corps are outlawing unions, firing people who bring up the subject, and trying to make unionizing illegal in certain industries. YEAH! CAPITALISM HELPING OUT THE LABORERS.
Then there's the middle class, the part of society I'm so lucky to have been born into. We're the ones who have the most to fear. We're the ones who get the pink slips when profits slip .5% and we're the ones who pay the highest taxes in the U.S. and the ones who really get reamed ALL THE MOTHERFUCKING TIME. We're the ones who work for 20 years to send our kids to college so that they can work for 30 years to send their kids to college, so that they, in turn can work for FIFTY YEARS to send their kids to a half-rate tech school. Capitalism at work for me and you, buddy. Those corporate execs lookin' out for us. I guess they don't want us to worry about having too much money. They probably figure we wouldn't know what to do if we had anything like financial stability or such asinine things like feelings of security and safety.
I pay $1.85 a gallon for gas. Why? Because we went to war to free up oil deposits. That means we have more oil! More gasoline! Cheaper gas? NOOOOOOOO! Texaco and Shell and those goat-groping assraiders couldn't ream us then. We have a surplus so PRICES GO EVEN HIGHER! Thanks again to Mr. Bush and the Pigopolists... AND ALL HAIL CAPITALISM!
Oh well, that's all I need to say now.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy James is COOL ]
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy James is COOL ]
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy James is COOL ]
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That deserves a standing ovation JJ COOL...
Hear, hear
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Wow...I didn't even know about this until I wandered onto this site again...
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this thread has now gone way off topic...
first it was protesting... then i'm a communist... then I was hitler... then capitalism... then America in general.
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When things turn around, and society is made to serve the businesses, competition is crushed in courts by expensive lawyers, and the right to 'innovate' is bought, sold, traded and fought over, capitalism fails. When new business are crushed even before they begin because one group owns a business method, the principals upon which capitalism was founded is crushed as well.
if one company has so much power that they can eliminate another company in a heart beat... so be it. I don't seem to know of a real true monopoly in the US.
MS - Apple
Ford - GM
Haliburton - Bectle
etc etc
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What a piece of shit way to live it's created. I have to work TWO GODDAMN JOBS these days to even live. I can barely afford to put gas in my car. Putting food on the table is even harder. Keeping bills balanced is Hell... for the last week, I've been taking showers at a friend's place because we COULDN'T PAY THE WATER BILL this month because WE DIDN'T MAKE ENOUGH BECAUSE OF PAY CUTS AT BOTH MY JOBS. (before anyone mentions my recent tech spending, that's because of my grandma getting me ready for school)
Both companies posted higher earnings and profits, but my pay went down. Yeah, good 'ol ass-sucking, cumguzzling capitalfuckingism.
Maybe stuff is so expensive because minimum wage is so high now. In the 60's stuff was cheaper (even when inflation is calculated) Back then minimum wage was lower. People didn't always request to have health care and a 401k. Now of course a lot of the money is going to the peeps at the top. But they are at the top.... is is their job to make themselves richer. If you have such a big problem with ur emplyers... quit. Stop working for them.
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I, personally can condone taking money from the rich to provide health care. As long as it's not inhibting their ability to survive, then, so be it. If it were to severely cut into their cash-flow, then, that *is* unfair. In society, each person must contribute. Laborers contribute THEIR LIVES to working in factories for low pay and shitty benefits. Unions came along and helped that, but now the corps are outlawing unions, firing people who bring up the subject, and trying to make unionizing illegal in certain industries. YEAH! CAPITALISM HELPING OUT THE LABORERS.
I can't condone taking money from the people who have it and getting hald of it lost in uselss beurocracy. Then giving the other half to people who should get their own. Unions also bother me, they are designed to give the worker more over time, for doing nothing more. Small business people don't get paid more over time for no reason. I don't see why those people should.
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Then there's the middle class, the part of society I'm so lucky to have been born into. We're the ones who have the most to fear. We're the ones who get the pink slips when profits slip .5% and we're the ones who pay the highest taxes in the U.S. and the ones who really get reamed ALL THE MOTHERFUCKING TIME. We're the ones who work for 20 years to send our kids to college so that they can work for 30 years to send their kids to college, so that they, in turn can work for FIFTY YEARS to send their kids to a half-rate tech school. Capitalism at work for me and you, buddy. Those corporate execs lookin' out for us. I guess they don't want us to worry about having too much money. They probably figure we wouldn't know what to do if we had anything like financial stability or such asinine things like feelings of security and safety.
the middle class does have the highest taxes to money ratio. Cus we are usually borderline between in the "Rich" tax area and the "middle tax area" You complain about working to send ur kids to college. At least you have the opportunity to do so. The laborers might not have that chance. Just remember that the rich people were poor at one time. and they did exactly wut u are doing now.
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I pay $1.85 a gallon for gas. Why? Because we went to war to free up oil deposits. That means we have more oil! More gasoline! Cheaper gas? NOOOOOOOO! Texaco and Shell and those goat-groping assraiders couldn't ream us then. We have a surplus so PRICES GO EVEN HIGHER! Thanks again to Mr. Bush and the Pigopolists... AND ALL HAIL CAPITALISM!
I havn't heard anything about excess or stuff... but the people at the top are profiting and I still have to pay too much for gas. Lets make it like the 60's 30 cents for premium... 20ft long cadillacs... then I will be happy
Now as I said... I'm done with this thread.
These are my beliefs. I am a very cynical person with very few morals and the belief that all people are evil. What else could you expect from me? I am also from Orange County, CA... as Jimmy put it... "the richest and most wasteful part of the richest and most wasteful country in the world"
and I'm proud of it. So, I'll continue to drive my SUV and look for a muscle to purchase.
You just can't expect me to be a humanitarian. I live to make money... then enjoy life.
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Re: gas... how can they not use the argument that they're profiting from volume?
270,000,000 americans
typical home has 2 automobiles. some have one, some have none, some have four or five. today, most of those vehicles are gas-guzzlers. people drive vehicles that are too big and too inefficient for them. a single dude doesn't need a suburban to commute to and from work. if he's got twelve other dudes in there with him going to work, that's efficient. we already talked about this online, though, but I have to say it for the benefit of the forum...
There's a reason that the rest of the country is buying fuel-efficient foreign autos. Our minimum wage is 5.50, not seven something. Our cost of living is lower, but our gas is nearly as high as yours out in CA. We're sick of spending $35 or $40 at the pump.
Something's gotta give, and right now, it's the american auto industry. their seeming inability to produce fuel-efficient cars and trucks is going to hurt them. Guys get Nissan X-Terras (god what an ugly box) and they get nearly 30MPG, while other dudes get Tahoes and get 12MPG.
Who's *really* better off? The guy with the giant fancy pants truck, or the guy who spends around half as much for a better quality vehicle that uses less gas?
I wish I were rich so that I could understand the economics of "wasting money" :D
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy James is COOL:
Something's gotta give, and right now, it's the american auto industry. their seeming inability to produce fuel-efficient cars and trucks is going to hurt them. Guys get Nissan X-Terras (god what an ugly box) and they get nearly 30MPG, while other dudes get Tahoes and get 12MPG.
I wish I were rich so that I could understand the economics of "wasting money" :D
thats the best you could come up with... you really are not familiar with the economics of wasting money (for pleasure).
Your best example was a pickup that got 12mpg... a pickup having a function other than driving. When I said wasting money (on AIM) I meant a Pontiac GTO or Dodge Charger with a 7, 8, or 9 Litre engine (427, 502, 545 cu in... which is how engines should be rated) that gets 8-5 mpg. And has no utility, its a car. I would be quite happy if the American Auto Industry went by by. I hate their shitty as cars. I just hope they don't bring the European companies that they own down with them. (My family has no American cars, we have British SUV's... but by no means are they efficient... 14mpg, but they are small, smaller than a nissan maxima in all directions except up. Shorter than the Ferrari Enzo.)
C'mon Jimmy. I know you can do better next time.
But JJ is right... minimum wage here is 7.60. Cost of living is INFINITELY higher, but gas is not as big a gouge. I still wish it were 30 cents for premium though.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: jeffberg: Mac Capitalist ]
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
thats the best you could come up with... you really are not familiar with the economics of wasting money (for pleasure).
Your best example was a pickup that got 12mpg... a pickup having a function other than driving. When I said wasting money (on AIM) I meant a Pontiac GTO or Dodge Charger with a 7, 8, or 9 Litre engine (427, 502, 545 cu in... which is how engines should be rated) that gets 8-5 mpg. And has no utility, its a car. I would be quite happy if the American Auto Industry went by by. I hate their shitty as cars. I just hope they don't bring the European companies that they own down with them. (My family has no American cars, we have British SUV's... but by no means are they efficient... 14mpg, but they are small, smaller than a nissan maxima in all directions except up. Shorter than the Ferrari Enzo.)
C'mon Jimmy. I know you can do better next time.
But JJ is right... minimum wage here is 7.60. Cost of living is INFINITELY higher, but gas is not as big a gouge. I still wish it were 30 cents for premium though.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: jeffberg: Mac Capitalist ]
Land Rovers?
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Its not even about having so much power you can eliminate competition in a heartbeat anymore. All a company needs is to own a patent for their own business model and the act of competeing with that company becomes illegal. No exaggeration here, its that simple. Lets say you wanted to set up an internet auction site, thinking you could do it and give users a better deal than ebay does, guess what, if your American, can can't, its illegal cause some guy owns online auctions. And Ebay got sued for 35 million dollars cause of it. Read more. (http://www.wired.com/news/ebiz/0,1272,59010,00.html) Maybe you want to sell things online and making it easy for users to use by storing their info in cookies...if your American and you did that you'd get your ass sued off. Amazon owns doing that, youd have to ask their permission and probably pay them royalties if you wanted to sell things online and keep user info in cookies. Read more. (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html)
Better start a business doing something else. And you better do it quick too, cause considering how vague and far reaching many of these patents are, pretty soon there will be really nothing left thats not covered by someone's patent. Sound crazy to you yet? Some people get a crazy patent of a business model or two, never lift a finger in doing anything with it, and wait for someone else to get rich off it so they can sue them to hell. Sick, no?
We all suffer from this, we have to pay Amazon prices when who knows, another company might have been able to compete with them and bring their prices down. This is just a start, its going to get a whole lot worse from here. Now if I was in Europe, I would be in flames trying to keep this shit from happening too.
Now there's alot alot alot more to be said about the issue. I suggest you read up on it when your done reading about Adam Smith and capitalism, and them form a more educated opinion before bringing it back here.
;) V (http://smile.gif)
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quote:
Now if I was in Europe, I would be in flames trying to keep this shit from happening too.
We are :mad: :mad: :mad:
Fortunately nearly all of our politicians are also against it.
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money talks though.
http://www.base.com/software-patents/kapor.html (http://www.base.com/software-patents/kapor.html)
i'll be posting regular updates on www.promote-opensource.org (http://www.promote-opensource.org) if and when updates re: the european software patents issue become available.
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The GTO and Charger were from a different era. 15 cents a gallon for gas, with 25 gallon tanks. You can drive across the country on less than $75 of gas.
As for pickups, I didn't say pickups. I'm talking about Suburbans and Tahoes and Ford Excretions. The wastes. Stuff the size of the S-Blazer/Trailblazer and smaller, shit, those things typically have rather efficient V4s and V6s that have enough pep while keeping city MPG in the high teens and highway driving in the mid 20s (remember, around here, highway MPG means something, because our cities don't cover hundreds of square miles and a "highway" moves at 70MPH, not 5 :-D
Splurging a little doh for pleasure is one thing, I don't see people who own late '60s muscle and show cars driving them all the time. However, I do see cheesy soccer moms with their 454 V8-powered 'Burban driving to the grocery store when a hatchback would do just fine.
But then, I guess all of us dudes here in the midwest that are tired of spending a day's worth of work at the pumps are just cheesy, backward old "hicks" or "rednecks" because we have quaint ideas like buying gas-electric, or electric automobiles, or driving motorcycles. Having a bicycle or moped for in-town driving or even... dare I say... WALKING?!!?
I guess I should return my 32MPG V6 Accord and go buy a big SUV and slam down a few barrels of oil like the were cans of Mountain Dew.
(http://home.alltel.net/redrocker/images/busy.gif)
I bet you'll vote him in for another term, eh?
I'm not. I'm voting for Jean-Baptiste Immanuel Zorg in 04.
Remember, guys... write-in Zorg/Dallas in 04
(http://home.alltel.net/redrocker/images/zorg-dallas.jpg)
[ September 05, 2003: Message edited by: Jimmy James is COOL ]
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quote:
saw the protest I didn't read about it, cus I don't care.
quote:
do u think martin luther was never beaten by violent cops? Yet they still didn't get violent.
The protestors trampled by horses werent getting violent you fuck arse. Bit hard when a horse just broke your ribs. What I said was that horses will balk and throw their riders if they are being made to charge at a group of people who by the way WERE SITTING DOWN PEACEFULLY AT THE TIME.
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Why don't current protestors know this and know the solution?
They do you retard. Unfortunately people like you get shown scenes of a few violent protestors over and over again and associate that with all protestors because you are too fucking apathetic and weak to go out and see the real world.
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if one company has so much power that they can eliminate another company in a heart beat... so be it
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If you have such a big problem with ur emplyers... quit. Stop working for them.
You mean unionize and say "either treat us fairly or we leave?" Holy shit! Never would of thought of that one!
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Unions also bother me, they are designed to give the worker more over time, for doing nothing more.
Man you have no fucking clue...
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Just remember that the rich people were poor at one time. and they did exactly wut u are doing now.
William Henry Gates the Third was poor at one time? George Bush Junior was poor at one time? Those at the top DO NOT WORK THEIR WAY TO THE TOP. They start there and never leave.
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I am a very cynical person with very few morals and the belief that all people are evil.
I agree completely, except your not cynical - your a naive moron who doesn't know what the fuck your talking about and accepts whatever CNN shows him at face value.
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"the richest and most wasteful part of the richest and most wasteful country in the world"
and I'm proud of it. So, I'll continue to drive my SUV and look for a muscle to purchase
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You just can't expect me to be a humanitarian. I live to make money... then enjoy life.
So in other words me me me? Let me tell you something - you will never be able to enjoy that life. You just arent good enough to reach "the top" because for the average person to "work their way up" you need a level playing field of a lot of talent, and from what I see you have neither.
quote:
you really are not familiar with the economics of wasting money (for pleasure).
Good corporate Ameican citizen. Now go consume and be a patriot. (patriot, noun - anyone who likes his country more than its people.)
Hopefully when you're older and actually have to see what the real world is like you'll start thinking then.
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sadly faust is 100% dead right.
because he is right, people like jeffberg will continue to dismiss the truth because its easier than admitting to themselves that they're a bunch of deluded selfish fucktards.
quote:
our old pal jeffberg:
It seemed to me only stupid people didn't get a vote. (do u have an article to back this one up?)
http://members.tripod.com/~musicmusic/stupid_white_men-amazon-sample-pages.html (http://members.tripod.com/~musicmusic/stupid_white_men-amazon-sample-pages.html)
http://www.mapcruzin.com/news/voting-fraud-050803f.htm (http://www.mapcruzin.com/news/voting-fraud-050803f.htm)
quote:
mr blind justice himself:
and maybe if it applied to me I would have read further and decided how to continue
most if not all of the software you use right now would be nonexistent or in a severely crippled form if the law which "doesn't affect" you had been in place for the last twenty years.
idiot.
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If you ever think something doesn't affect you then I hope you've considered that old story from Nazi germany:
"First they came for the trade unionists and I did nothing because I wasn't a trade unionist,
Then they came for the communists and I did nothing because I wasn't a communist,
Then they came for the jews and I did nothing because I wasn't a jew,
Now they are coming for me and there is no one left to help me."
(I tried to remember it as best I could, although I'm not sure about the historical accuracy of the trade unionist part. You get the point anyway I hope.)
We are all affected by people like Microsoft and of course the Lawyer Scum at some point in our lives, and if you don't care about other peoples rights then they won't defend yours.
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
I can't condone taking money from the people who have it and getting hald of it lost in uselss beurocracy. Then giving the other half to people who should get their own. Unions also bother me, they are designed to give the worker more over time, for doing nothing more. Small business people don't get paid more over time for no reason. I don't see why those people should.
I dont really have much to say on the original topic of this thread, everything has already been said. but the above statement... fuck you. you're probably sitting in a fucking 5 bedroom house with your fucking computer lab full of fucking $4000 apples driving your porsh to your job where you sit on your ass in an office and make $70/hr. fuck you. my mom works her ass off for 9 and a half hours a day lifting 70lb boxes of crate and working under very unsatisfying conditions. she makes $8.50/hour and raises are against policy. she gets no insurance of any sort, no retirement plan. she's 40 and has no stability, no money, and in a few days we're getting evicted because rent is $500 more than we have. You'll probably say, "why doesn't she quit? why not get a better job?" she always quits, she gets a new job nearly every year and this is the best one she's had since i was born. You have any idea what it's like to work your ass 5-6 days a week and have nothing to show for it? having to worry about whether or not your can have dinner tomorrow or if power will be shut off next week? I dont think it's the best idea to take money from those who make more... not directly at least by taxing them. they should simply get a paycut and others should get a nice raise. but that wont happen any time soon, so yes... tax the bastards (no offense to anyone).
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quote:
they should simply get a paycut and others should get a nice raise. but that wont happen any time soon, so yes... tax the bastards (no offense to anyone).
Exactly. So why the hell do you like Bush?
[ September 05, 2003: Message edited by: flap ]
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quote:
Originally posted by flap:
Exactly. So why the hell do you like Bush?
What the fuck does bush have to do with how a greedy bastard runs his company? if you are meaning the minimum wage thing, that's just 1 part that i disagree with him on. minimum wage is fine where it is, some people actually do deserve to get paid little.
[ September 05, 2003: Message edited by: Stryker ]
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You seriously think Bush's repugnant conservative views are any different from the person who started this thread? What is someone in your position doing supporting republicans anyway?
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quote:
Originally posted by flap:
You seriously think Bush's repugnant conservative views are any different from the person who started this thread?
yes.
quote:
What is someone in your position doing supporting republicans anyway?
umm... "supporting rebublicans" would be my answer to that. If you meant, "why?" then... i dont know. i'll post later, a little busy now.
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quote:
Land Rovers?
Yes... A 98 Discovery and a 2002 FreeLander
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor V: Gentoo Lunatic:
Its not even about having so much power you can eliminate competition in a heartbeat anymore. All a company needs is to own a patent for their own business model and the act of competeing with that company becomes illegal. No exaggeration here, its that simple. Lets say you wanted to set up an internet auction site, thinking you could do it and give users a better deal than ebay does, guess what, if your American, can can't, its illegal cause some guy owns online auctions. And Ebay got sued for 35 million dollars cause of it. Read more. (http://www.wired.com/news/ebiz/0,1272,59010,00.html) Maybe you want to sell things online and making it easy for users to use by storing their info in cookies...if your American and you did that you'd get your ass sued off. Amazon owns doing that, youd have to ask their permission and probably pay them royalties if you wanted to sell things online and keep user info in cookies. Read more. (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html)
Better start a business doing something else. And you better do it quick too, cause considering how vague and far reaching many of these patents are, pretty soon there will be really nothing left thats not covered by someone's patent. Sound crazy to you yet? Some people get a crazy patent of a business model or two, never lift a finger in doing anything with it, and wait for someone else to get rich off it so they can sue them to hell. Sick, no?
We all suffer from this, we have to pay Amazon prices when who knows, another company might have been able to compete with them and bring their prices down. This is just a start, its going to get a whole lot worse from here. Now if I was in Europe, I would be in flames trying to keep this shit from happening too.
Now there's alot alot alot more to be said about the issue. I suggest you read up on it when your done reading about Adam Smith and capitalism, and them form a more educated opinion before bringing it back here.
;) V (http://smile.gif)
I completely agree with you. these patents are a bad thing. But this post was not pro patent. It was anti protesting. I do not think protesting is the proper way to stop these patents. (as I have explained before)
Faust... it was not necissary to make this personal
quote:
The protestors trampled by horses werent getting violent you fuck arse. Bit hard when a horse just broke your ribs. What I said was that horses will balk and throw their riders if they are being made to charge at a group of people who by the way WERE SITTING DOWN PEACEFULLY AT THE TIME.
Ok then... the riders got wut they deserve... I don't see what your so pissed about?
quote:
They do you retard. Unfortunately people like you get shown scenes of a few violent protestors over and over again and associate that with all protestors because you are too fucking apathetic and weak to go out and see the real world.
if u mean weak and apethetic means I have never participated in a protest then I guess I am weak and apathetic. And your right... the only protests I have ever seen are on TV. However they usually show the protest before it gets violent and after... not just after. Even my friend, who is a complete outspoken liberal, was bragging when the an antiwar protest in SF took place and didn't get violent. As if it was a rare thing. Also, violence isn't my main reason for thinking that protesting doesn't get stuff done. Its the fact that Companies are basically affected by only one thing... money.
quote:
You mean unionize and say "either treat us fairly or we leave?" Holy shit! Never would of thought of that one!
no... not unionize... just quit (and if u wanna add some flare, don't give a 2 week notice)
quote:
Unions also bother me, they are designed to give the worker more over time, for doing nothing more.
Man you have no fucking clue...
If they are not designed to give the woker either more money or more benefits then wut exactly do they do?
quote:
Just remember that the rich people were poor at one time. and they did exactly wut u are doing now.
William Henry Gates the Third was poor at one time? George Bush Junior was poor at one time? Those at the top DO NOT WORK THEIR WAY TO THE TOP. They start there and never leave.
I should have said riches families were poor at one time... so, you really got my error on that one
quote:
So in other words me me me? Let me tell you something - you will never be able to enjoy that life. You just arent good enough to reach "the top" because for the average person to "work their way up" you need a level playing field of a lot of talent, and from what I see you have neither.
you have no idea who I am. I don't think it is proper for you to tell me what I can and can not do
Stryker:
quote:
posted September 05, 2003 04:25 PM
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quote:
I don't understand exactly what you want me to say. "Oh I feel so bad for your family and all others like it. I will start fighting for the other side now"
that makes you look like a real dick. i know it's a personal attack that you dont want, but it really does.
quote:
I just said above that I am a cynical person who is completely self centered.
see above. i hope that something happens to you, temporarily perhaps, that puts you in my position.
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I sympathy for you. I wish it were better for you.
no you dont.
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But I'm not going to do anything about it.
you will if the public says you will, welcome to america. taxing you isn't illegal.
quote:
and flap is right. You are a liberal. Just because you are in such a bad position makes you a liberal... just about automatically.
perhaps, i'm not sure anymore. i'm not one of those ultra liberals that give them all a bad name, i dont really give myself a title. i believe what i believe. rarely people believe the same thing and i think it's stupid to classify people into political groups.
quote:
Why are you supporting Bush?
mainly, his ideas on the war i agree with. dont argue that though, i wont bother responding i've had too much arguement over it.
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quote:
that makes you look like a real dick. i know it's a personal attack that you dont want, but it really does.
Well... what I said to you I would condone as personal. So I apologize and I did deserve that.
quote:
I sympathy for you. I wish it were better for you.
no you dont.
Actually I do. I have a friend who is not exactly the most well of person in the world. I feel bad for him too. I don't like the fact that there are poor people. But that is the way it is. And there is nothing I can do about it.
quote:
you will if the public says you will, welcome to america. taxing you isn't illegal
You are correct here, but I do vote for lower taxes. Also America has some of the lowest income taxes in the world. That is another reason I like the US
quote:
and flap is right. You are a liberal. Just because you are in such a bad position makes you a liberal... just about automatically.
perhaps, i'm not sure anymore. i'm not one of those ultra liberals that give them all a bad name, i dont really give myself a title. i believe what i believe. rarely people believe the same thing and i think it's stupid to classify people into political groups.
I totally Agree with you here. I don't think people can be 100% classified under one name or the other. Every person is different. Like even though I consider myself conservative. I believe in the right to abortion and the right to being gay and the requirement of separation of church and state (I am also a mac user... which is on the liberal side of the computing world)
quote:
Why are you supporting Bush?
mainly, his ideas on the war i agree with. dont argue that though, i wont bother responding i've had too much arguement over it.
That is the main reason I support him too. The second being he lowers taxes
I think this has been a good post. I actually had some things I could agree with on this one.
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If protesting is not what we should to to stop this BS, then how should we? By just shutting up and voting like you seem to think? I really wish that would work, however, the elected politicians often do not know what the public wants, and really don't understand the issues they vote on. Industry representatives a.k.a. lobbists, the guys who might benefit from these patents and other crazy laws, meet with them and give them their side of the story and thats usually all they ever hear. The have to meet with these lobbists cause the industry finances their campaign. Now, if the politician sees on the news that thousands of people are on the streets and up in flames over this, it might, just might make them think twice before following with what is fed to the by the lobbists.
Protesting gets things done, usually they arn't violent, and even republicans protest sometimes.
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctor V: Gentoo Lunatic:
Protesting gets things done, usually they arn't violent, and even republicans protest sometimes.
Since most protests are small... I guess one could assume they don't get violent. But the ones big enough to change people't mind about not making more money have a lot of people. And a lot of people in one area has a couple of problems. They can block traffic of some sort. They all do not listen to the leader of the protest (there are just too many) and eventually cops come and taunt them. and a very few of the people who do not truly believe in their cause can screw everything up very badly, by becoming violent.
And yes, republicans do protest sometimes.
You do make a good point. But I truly think that if your elected representatives don't represent you. Be more careful when you elect them. And then of course there is always the boycott type of thing (which is a more extreme version of the voting with your wallet thing) Just spread the word around europe not to purchase software covered under the patents law. Then if companies start seeing a loss in sales they WILL get rid of it.
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The reason that this thread started is that we are fighting stereo types here.
The conservatives think that all liberals are hippies with no wealth, or wit. the surfs of modern america, they only belive in social development because they know that they will get something out of it because they are liberals and they must be poor.
The Liberals think that all conservatives are rich greedy people who only got were they are because they used the money passed down from the last generation. the only reason Consrvatives believe in corperate rights is because they are either share holders or owners of businesses who will gain something from it.
And they both believe that there can not be a common ground.
I am a Canadian Conservative, a member of the party no less. I believe that for the most part unions are a bad thing, but I also believe that obtuse patents based on the most miniscule of ideas is a bad thing.
Unlike Jeff my family dosen't drive british SUV's
my dad owned a triumph in the seventies and always had problems with the eletrical, so I grew up always hearing British cars bad electrics.
no offence Calum, Zardoz, anyone else
instaed My parents both drive newer Mazdas my mom a miata, my dad a truck some pick up thingy.
I had to buy myself a car so I own a Tercel, my parents bought my little brother a Cavalier.
we live the one of the most expensive areas in canada, The North shore of BC being the most expensive and whistler and crap.
My dad owns an industrial tooling company and is a partner an a plastics forming and fabricating company
so in an akward way im trying to say im no hippie, trying without bosting too much
I believe that protest is a good thing, you can change the world two ways, loud and bold yelling at the castle wall, or whispering many samll changes inside the castle.
YOU CAN NOT VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET
You, the single consumer mean nothing, you, the many consumers mean nothing, you, all of the consumers still mean nothing!............at least not to the RIAA
people stop buying CD's and start downloading because music is over priced and crappy, and comes with too many inhibitting copywrongs (sound related?)
so after we have voted against the RIAA with our wallets, they changed, because we voted and thats it right? Wrong Asshole! instead an American association leavies a tax on CDR's in the US AND Motherfucking Canada.
well we won the motherfucking battle there now didn't we, get any subpoenas in the mail latley?
voting with your wallet is a myth! two hundred thousand people not buying a mac is nothing compared to 50 thousand standing together screaming bloody murder in front of Apple HQ...
Apple is just an example, just came to mind for some reason. they should not be protested against.
OK so Liberal Protestors are not hippies, and conservative southern californian mac owners are not green eyed, empty headed, falsley educated, money hording, arogant....... prove it Jeff
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Protesting can also get the voters who elect these politicians to look into issues they would otherwise have never heard about. You ask average joe on the street what he thinks of software and business model patenting and he'll probably be very confused. He sees thousands protesting against it and he might think twice next time its his turn to vote.
Boycotting to stop software patents simply won't work.
Here's how a boycott works:
Corp A and corp B both sell product X. Corp A goes evil. Stop buying from corp A and buy from corp B instead. Corp A loses money and changes their ways.
Here's our problem:
Corp A and corp B both sell product X. Corp A patents product X. Corp B is sued, and goes out of business cause its now illegal for anyone but corp A to sell product B. Corp A can do whatever evil they want cause people either really want or outright need product X and will never be able to get it from anyone else. They'd like to boycott, but that would mean giving up product X completely, which might not be possible.
Now in this case we arn't even talking about a certian product, its going to be much more far reaching, it might be a way of selling things, or a couple lines of code that thousands of applications use. It could be just about anything. Yes, under this system Mcdonalds could have patented fast food, Dominoes could have patented pizza delivery, or even the idea of food delivery all together. Point is, boycotting is meaningless here. Its either stopped before it starts or we all suffer.
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suselinux:
My step dad had a triumph when he was growig up too. It had tons of little problems like that. And British cars do classicly have electrical problems. But the electrical system in the Rover is german... Bosch. We got ours the first year BWM owned Rover.
Just a funny coincidence I thought.
Although, your Mazda's are by no means Japanese. Ford has completely transformed them. They share almost all of the same parts. And are made in the US. (not that you wanted them to be japanese or anything, just saying)
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voting with your wallet is a myth! two hundred thousand people not buying a mac is nothing compared to 50 thousand standing together screaming bloody murder in front of Apple HQ...
Apple is just an example, just came to mind for some reason. they should not be protested against.
Correct. But 50,000 not buying a Mac will be even bigger. Apple can't afford to lose 50,000 customers. This will cause them to change. Cause them to fix the reason why you are not purchasing their product. I don't see how 50,000 people outside of apple HQ with signs saying "bad Apple," but they still have brand new powerbooks strapped to their shoulders would do anything. In fact Apple would be getting free publicity. The news would be all over it, and depending on the channel would tell it from different perspectives. Its like those people who didn't want to pay for .Mac. They signed a petition but still payed. It doesn't work that way. If a company is not to make money by doing what they are doing they will change. Because the sole purpose of a business is to make money... do you not agree?
Doctor V:
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Corp A and corp B both sell product X. Corp A patents product X. Corp B is sued, and goes out of business cause its now illegal for anyone but corp A to sell product B. Corp A can do whatever evil they want cause people either really want or outright need product X and will never be able to get it from anyone else. They'd like to boycott, but that would mean giving up product X completely, which might not be possible.
if you really believe in your cause you will stop using product X. During the civil rights movement. One of the first things they did was boycott the bus system. There was no corp b bus system. Only one. They stopped using it. It was a huge pain. They had to walk or bum rides from people. But they did it. And it will take at least 6 months for corp b to get sued out of existance. So you have some time.
I don't think there is a way to prove my points any further.
Businesses are created for one purpose... to make money. If people stop buying their product, the company will lose money. If there is a way for the company to remedy this, and make it so people will buy their product they will. There is only one exception. And that is if the company KNOWS, without a doubt, that holding onto whatever they have will in the future turn major profits. But they can't hold out forever.
I guarantee that if 100 million people stopped buying and using the Windows OS and told MS its because of their monopolistic behavior. That after several years of losing 100 million customers. They would fold and change their ways. Because making some money is better than making none and just closing your doors.
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Now in this case we arn't even talking about a certian product, its going to be much more far reaching, it might be a way of selling things, or a couple lines of code that thousands of applications use. It could be just about anything. Yes, under this system Mcdonalds could have patented fast food, Dominoes could have patented pizza delivery, or even the idea of food delivery all together. Point is, boycotting is meaningless here. Its either stopped before it starts or we all suffer.
Your right... boycotting is not the best way to get this patent thing not done. But if worst comes to worst and it does get put into effect. I am sure that if you stopped buying stuff from the company that was enforcing their patents and sueing others, and you told them that was why.. with a letter of some sort. You told them why you were not buying from them that they would stop. It would take a long time. They would have to think that you were never going to buy from them ever again. But eventually they would go out of business (from losing money) or give in.
Now if on the other hand 100 million people protest their Windows OS but still buy it. They will get negative publicity. But because of their monopoly the rest of the people would still buy the product, and even the protestors would buy the prodcut, cus according to suse they couldn't live without it. MS would not change. They have no reason too. They are still rakin in the Doh.
I think that is the best way I can explain it. The whole principle of voting with your wallet is based on the 100% absolute fact that all companies are designed to make money, and all patents, and patent systems are designed to make money. Remove the money, and they give in. Change their ways. They won't make as much money now. But its better than making no money.
[ September 06, 2003: Message edited by: jeffberg: Mac Capitalist ]
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:rolleyes:
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if you really believe in your cause you will stop using product X. During the civil rights movement. One of the first things they did was boycott the bus system. There was no corp b bus system. Only one. They stopped using it. It was a huge pain. They had to walk or bum rides from people. But they did it. And it will take at least 6 months for corp b to get sued out of existance. So you have some time.
I don't think there is a way to prove my points any further.
Look at my post again and see that I said that 'product X' could be something that people really want or outright need. Your response adresses the former, but completely misses the latter the latter. Under this system something which people are dependant on could be patented.
:mad:
You really do not understand this issue at all do you. From the example above, maybe company A doesn't even sell product X, they simple own the patent for it and want to get a cut from every purchase. How does a boycott help then? If you don't buy the product, company A loses nothing. Its possible, its happened already to ebay. Also a fact that is already stated above.
Its not a single company that sells a single product, but a system of gaining quick and easy market domination. Even if we could boycott one company into giving up their patent, there would be hundreds no probably thousands more, the boycotts would never end, and technical advancement, new business and competition would be slowed down to a near halt. Furthermore the boycotted company would likely not give up the patent, instead they would just sell it. Then we start over.
I'd rather just protest, that actually might do something.
There is a time and place for boycotting, times when it works and works well, but also there are times when it is not appropriate.
(http://redface.gif) V (http://redface.gif)
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Originally posted by Doctor V: Gentoo Lunatic:
:rolleyes:
Look at my post again and see that I said that 'product X' could be something that people really want or outright need. Your response adresses the former, but completely misses the latter the latter. Under this system something which people are dependant on could be patented.
:mad:
You really do not understand this issue at all do you. From the example above, maybe company A doesn't even sell product X, they simple own the patent for it and want to get a cut from every purchase. How does a boycott help then? If you don't buy the product, company A loses nothing. Its possible, its happened already to ebay. Also a fact that is already stated above.
Its not a single company that sells a single product, but a system of gaining quick and easy market domination. Even if we could boycott one company into giving up their patent, there would be hundreds no probably thousands more, the boycotts would never end, and technical advancement, new business and competition would be slowed down to a near halt. Furthermore the boycotted company would likely not give up the patent, instead they would just sell it. Then we start over.
I'd rather just protest, that actually might do something.
There is a time and place for boycotting, times when it works and works well, but also there are times when it is not appropriate.
(http://redface.gif) V (http://redface.gif)
as I said... this is not the best issue for a boycot. But by your example. If Comp A has a patent on product X. And 3 people sell product X by paying Comp a. Then if you stop buying that product Comp A will lose money. And if they lose enough they will stop enforcing their patent. You have to tell them that the patent is the reason people aren't buying. Sure you may eliminate 3 other almost innocent companies too. But remember they were participating in the patent system too.
Also, I do not understand when you said NEED. There is no piece of software on this earth that you NEED to not die. Maybe its your main source of income. But there are millions of people who live without any income. You do not have a NEED for software. You just don't want this boycott to vastly affect your life. Its going to have to if your really serious about your cause.
Have any of you people ever considered that if this does get passed... its because of what the majority wanted? The liberals being the majority. I don't see how you can very easily lose. I mean how corrupt could the people you punt into office over there actually be? I mean they are politicians (making them automatically liars) but they can't be as bad as the US Politicians.
[ September 06, 2003: Message edited by: jeffberg: Mac Capitalist ]
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Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
as I said... this is not the best issue for a boycot. But by your example. If Comp A has a patent on product X. And 3 people sell product X by paying Comp a. Then if you stop buying that product Comp A will lose money. And if they lose enough they will stop enforcing their patent.
why would they?
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You have to tell them that the patent is the reason people aren't buying.
why?
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Sure you may eliminate 3 other almost innocent companies too. But remember they were participating in the patent system too.
they are forced to participate, they shouldn't get eliminated.
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Also, I do not understand when you said NEED. There is no piece of software on this earth that you NEED to not die.
We dont need a word processor. We dont need calculator programs. We dont need CADing software. We dont need bank managers or credit card processors. yep... who needs software?
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Maybe its your main source of income. But there are millions of people who live without any income.
lots of people die with no income.
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You do not have a NEED for software.
sure we do.
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You just don't want this boycott to vastly affect your life. Its going to have to if your really serious about your cause.
isn't the whole point to have things stay how they are now, as far as patents? the idea is to not have it change our lives.
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Have any of you people ever considered that if this does get passed... its because of what the majority wanted?
nope. not once. people get lied to and tricked into voting one way, others dont understand so they just vote randomly or by what their friend's did.
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Now I think Stryker is just trying to make this go on and on
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why would they?
cus if they don't stop enforcing the patents then people won't buy the software from the other companies. Which means they won't get paid licesne fees. Which means they will go out of business.
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why?
or else they might not know what the drop in revenue is from. Then they would not know how to fix it.
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they are forced to participate, they shouldn't get eliminated
They are not forced to participate. They do not HAVE to sell Product X. It is not a requirement for them. They chose to sell product X and pay the patent fees. They are participating under their own free will.
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We dont need a word processor. We dont need calculator programs. We dont need CADing software. We dont need bank managers or credit card processors. yep... who needs software?
Exactly. Cavement didn't have software. The people that drive trash trucks don't use software. I don't see why one would need software. It would just help them a lot... a very lot.
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lots of people die with no income
lots of people don't. There are plently of homeless an hour from here, in LA. They have no income, and they survive.
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sure we do
You don't NEED software. You just want it. Your life does not depend on how much software you can waste away in front of your computer to use.
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isn't the whole point to have things stay how they are now, as far as patents? the idea is to not have it change our lives.
This hypothetical situation is a last resort
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nope. not once. people get lied to and tricked into voting one way, others dont understand so they just vote randomly or by what their friend's did.
That is just sad, you really think that low of your fellow human beings. I don't even think THAT low. If that is the case however. Instead of protesting and running around in the streets. You should make an education type campaing. Flyers and a web site. Put flyers in mail boxes and on car windshields. Try to get connections to BBC (or some other european focused internation) news, to put it on TV. Try to make a website for everyone to go to. And negotiate some mention of this on other people's web sites. Try to make it so a proper vote is cast.
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Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
Now I think Stryker is just trying to make this go on and on
nope, i just disagree with you... are you trying to avoid it?
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cus if they don't stop enforcing the patents then people won't buy the software from the other companies. Which means they won't get paid licesne fees. Which means they will go out of business.
if they dont stop enforcing? i thought you said they would stop enforcing it. i was pointing out that they have no reason to. they stop enforcing it... they definately dont get any money. the continue enforcing it when sales are down, they still get a little and dont have to work for it.
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or else they might not know what the drop in revenue is from. Then they would not know how to fix it.
ok
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They are not forced to participate. They do not HAVE to sell Product X. It is not a requirement for them. They chose to sell product X and pay the patent fees. They are participating under their own free will.
ok, say one makes cars and has done it for years. suddenly some guy comes along and says, "hey! automatic windows were MY idea! give me money!"... then they were forced into it. and this is generally what will get a lot of companies... especially in software.
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Exactly. Cavement didn't have software. The people that drive trash trucks don't use software. I don't see why one would need software. It would just help them a lot... a very lot.
it's called progress. and we have grown to depend on it. did your mother teach you how to catch, kill, prepare, and eat food with your bare hands? no? how else would u know how. you're in a society where you needs different things than we did back then. I NEED software, especially when it comes to financial institutions. for being a proud capitalist you sure ur against the need for progress? for software? it's needed.
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lots of people don't. There are plently of homeless an hour from here, in LA. They have no income, and they survive.
and they get what little food they have from people that do have an income.
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You don't NEED software. You just want it. Your life does not depend on how much software you can waste away in front of your computer to use.
I dont need to own a computer to need software. before i had a computer i relied on software, i couldn't write or cash a check without software. so i wouldn't be able to eat, get clothes, or anything that we NEED.
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This hypothetical situation is a last resort
what do u mean by that?
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That is just sad, you really think that low of your fellow human beings. I don't even think THAT low.
you think the majority of people are well educated and know what they are voting for on every little option on there? ok.
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If that is the case however. Instead of protesting and running around in the streets. You should make an education type campaing. Flyers and a web site. Put flyers in mail boxes and on car windshields. Try to get connections to BBC (or some other european focused internation) news, to put it on TV. Try to make a website for everyone to go to. And negotiate some mention of this on other people's web sites. Try to make it so a proper vote is cast.
I agree. but what's wrong with a protest? it gets people to pay attention, even the public who is intrested when they hear the word "protest".
I just disagreed with you that someone would stop enforcing a pantent simply because they stopped getting money off of it, they wont. I disagree with ur ideas of us not needing software. i think i'm done here though, not really the thread i like. just thought i'd have to bump in and yell at you for ur little "i make money, fuck everyone who doesn't" post. shouldn't have said anything else.
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I tried to back out of this on page one. But the people kept coming.
I do understand what you mean by comp a would not stop enforcing it because they would not get money anymore from the patents and die. But this is of course assuming the comp a is not making software X themselves. Which is highly unlikely.
I also understand what you mean by one company building a car for years then another one sueing them for power windows. I highly doubt that such an unethical attack will be allowed. The court will probably allow the company to stop putting the power windows in the car, or continue if they want to pay the patent fee.
I disagree with you about NEEDing software... but we will just have to agree to disagree on that one.
No... I do not think that the majority of people are educated and know what they are voting for. But those people are on the other side of the fence. So I don't even worry about it.
when you said whats wrong with protest. Just think that there are other poeple like me, who when they see people protesting. They think down on them for not finding a more civilized (for lack of a better word) way of doing what they want done.
But I am glad this thread is over. And my first post was FREAKIN harsh. I was just mad cus I wanted to see some update on the xboxmediaplayer... but no, they're protesting. Nothing I can bout it though. Just blowing off steam. I should of found a more conservative message board to do it in. Now people here will think less of me. But whatever, nothing I can do about. I'm over it.
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Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
Now people here will think less of me.
nope, it all boils down to...
how do u feel about microsoft?
i dont care about ur political opinions, it just pisses me off to see someone who's well off be very self centered and uncaring for those who aren't. just because we dont have money doesn't mean we dont deserve it.
that's it from me.
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I'm glad we can all be friends again :D :D :D
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Originally posted by jeffberg: Mac Capitalist:
I tried to back out of this on page one. But the people kept coming.
no you didn't idiot. like the particular type of US loudmouth that you are you spouted a HUGE pile of OUTRAGEOUS RUBBISH and then told everybody else to shut up because they are wrong.
that is not the same as "backing out".
what u fucktard.
it's a shame the US is run by people like you, and it's an even bigger shame there's so many drones waiting to vote for them and take their places when they get old, crusty and grey.
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For example:
Insert name here is a fucking loser! He screws goats, and his parents are retards that need to be shot blah blah blah typical troll garbage.
Well I'm done with this conversation now and because I dont want to keep the pointless flaming in these forums going I'm backing out now - hey I'm the good guy! If you keep posting you must *like* flame wars or something.
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I'm done with it too. We've all heard eachothers opinion. Accepting people who have different opinions is one of the most important things for a person to learn how to do.
And damn Micro$hit to hell, and fuck all those goddammned windroids!
:mad: V ;)