Stop Microsoft
Miscellaneous => The Lounge => Topic started by: Bazoukas on 1 August 2002, 23:40
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Because people are faking Morons thats why.
I have people asking me to fix their PC, because "oh i cant see the Scanner anymore, ohh how do you install a Driver? oohhhh The CDROM wont play anymore. ohhhh i dont know how to configure my firewall".
All of them are ofcourse Windows9 ME or XP users.
I have been called a genious just for replacing a Modem. And shit i dont even know if I even spelled the word genious correctly.
Hell i am the 1st to tell you that i am just an average smo.
Lets faking face it. Windows although its fucked up, is easy to use. But still a good portion of PC users dont even know how to use WIndows even though they cyber the shit out of themselves everyday.
Yeah i know what am talking about. I seen many naked pics of the owners themselves in the MyDocuments folder.
Try to ask them to go to Linux and they will start crying like bitches.
PEOPLE ARE FUCKING MORONS!!!!! They are sheeps.
Beeeeeee beeeeeeeeee beeeeeeeee.
Compile from source??
"Oh my that sounds very complicated. Can you do that? And what does it mean? Oh I dont u nderstand but you are a genious".
[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]
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Translation: You are their Windows slave.
It really pisses people off but I quit helping them. If they don't want to be your friend any more then they weren't a friend to start with.
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i like it when people claim im a god,
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quote:
Originally posted by choasforages:
i like it when people claim im a god,
People know that you like it, and they also know that because of that you will fix their Windows problems for them. It's called a carrot. I prefer cash.
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i used to hate those people, but after i fixed it it would usually start being "broken" again because windows is a piece of crap, then i would get blamed. Then i stopped helping most people with their windows problems unless it is the[/]b windows problem (meaning that they are getting rid of it)
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quote:
Originally posted by bazoukas:
Try to ask them to go to Linux and they will start crying like bitches.
PEOPLE ARE FUCKING MORONS!!!!! They are sheeps.
Beeeeeee beeeeeeeeee beeeeeeeee.
There's a really good book you should read. It's called The Wealth of Nations. Author is Adam Smith. Published in 1776. Chapter 1 explains an idea called "division of labor." You know, not everyone does everything for themselves. Instead, they specialize. Some people are farmers, others are blacksmiths, others are computer geeks.
When the farmer needs help with his computer, he hires a geek. Payment can come in all kinds of forms. If not money, maybe eggs, because the geek has offloaded food production to someone who specializes in it.
So ... do you slaughter your own tofu or do you buy it at the natural foods co-op?
p.s.: Without problems there are no jobs. Without jobs, you sit on heating grates and beg for quarters.
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: willysnout ]
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
So ... do you slaughter your own tofu or do you buy it at the natural foods co-op?
The ting is that we geeks CAN grow/slaughter our own food if we want to. Granted, it may be less good as the farmer's, but it'll be edible.
Most ppl can't even do the simpelest things on a computer. Even with a manual in their hands.
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
There's a really good book you should read. It's called The Wealth of Nations. Author is Adam Smith. Published in 1776. Chapter 1 explains an idea called "division of labor." You know, not everyone does everything for themselves. Instead, they specialize. Some people are farmers, others are blacksmiths, others are computer geeks.
When the farmer needs help with his computer, he hires a geek. Payment can come in all kinds of forms. If not money, maybe eggs, because the geek has offloaded food production to someone who specializes in it.
So ... do you slaughter your own tofu or do you buy it at the natural foods co-op?
p.s.: Without problems there are no jobs. Without jobs, you sit on heating grates and beg for quarters.
Hey, I grew up on a farm, I milked cows all my life. I was also a fighter jet mechanic for about 12 years. Have been a professional computer geek for the last 12 years. I know many farmers who do not need help with their computer.
I don't ask any farmer for a free lunch. I don't expect any farmer to ask me to fix his computer for free. You want to pay to have your computer fixed that is fine but there is nothing to stop anyone from learning a little about it themselves and not pay anyone for it. Just as it is ok for anyone to have a garden and grow their own food. If you are dumber than a box of rocks, pay someone to do your dirty work.
People are not born with a gene that makes them a farmer. People are not born with a gene that makes them a computer geek. Now it is entirely possible that people are born with a gene that makes them lazy and even more possible that they are born with a gene that makes them stupid.
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
You want to pay to have your computer fixed that is fine but there is nothing to stop anyone from learning a little about it themselves and not pay anyone for it. Now it is entirely possible that people are born with a gene that makes them lazy and even more possible that they are born with a gene that makes them stupid.
I agree with you that people don't work for free, nor should they. If you don't want to help someone fix their comptuer, then don't do it. You'll hear no complaints from me.
My point is that people who don't understand computers aren't "dumb." It's a complicated world and lots of people don't want to learn how to fix their computers, or have no aptitude for it. There is nothing at all wrong with this.
Other way around, in fact. It is called "specialization." People focus their time and effort on things they enjoy and/or do well. When this happens, the overall welfare goes up.
It's a damn shame that Microsoft, of all companies, should wind up being the leader in user-friendliness. That is a HUGE commentary on the incompetence, insularity, arrogance and isolationism prevalent within the "geek," i.e., computer specialist, community.
If the geeks weren't so out of it, Microsoft would fall like a ton o'bricks. Especially after that abortion they call Windows XP. But they haven't fallen, and that's because Linux is dominated by arrogant geeks whose answer to ordinary usability problems by non-specialists is to call them idiots.
I once took a college class on the history of World War II. The professor talked about how, when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, they were greeted with wild enthusiasm in places like the Ukraine, which had been literally starved to death by Stalin. Within months, the people learned that the Germans were even worse than the Russians.
Stalin, truly one of the most hideous murderers in human history, wound up rallying these poor wretches! You see, the Nazis had classified Eastern Europeans as animals fit for slavery and death. This is how German snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Not that I wish they had been smarter; I mention this as a point of strategy and tactics only.
At the moment, this is how I look upon the Linux crowd. There is widespread dissatisfaction with Microsoft, and it grows with every price increase, "upgrade" and power play. What do the Silicon Valley pinheads do in response? They set about to blow a collossal opportunity by projecting hostility and arrogance toward people who just want to use their computers as opposed to fall in love with them.
Now that, children, is the very definition of idiocy.
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: willysnout ]
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: willysnout ]
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
If the geeks weren't so out of it, Microsoft would fall like a ton o'bricks. Especially after that abortion they call Windows XP. But they haven't fallen, and that's because Linux is dominated by arrogant geeks whose answer to ordinary usability problems by non-specialists is to call them idiots.
At the moment, this is how I look upon the Linux crowd. There is widespread dissatisfaction with Microsoft, and it grows with every price increase, "upgrade" and power play. What do the Silicon Valley pinheads do in response? They set about to blow a collossal opportunity by projecting hostility and arrogance toward people who just want to use their computers as opposed to fall in love with them.
You got it wrong. I can not think of a single case where someone asked a simple question about Linux and have any experienced Linux user do anything but bend over backward trying to help them, for free, no charge. I spend several hours a day doing "charity" Linux work, because I love to do it, and because I hate Microsoft.
Now, I have seen many cases where someone has asked a simple question about Windows and get flamed for it. After all this *is* an anti-Microsoft board. I would expect nothing less.
And Silicon Valley has nothing really to do with Linux at all. That is the place where proprietary things come from. The linux effort is worldwide and has a complete opposite philosophy to what you see from Silicon Valley. Microsoft are the Nazis (big, bad, proprietary, the leader is an ugly dictator). Linux, GNU, Open Source are the Jews. Just like Hitler and the Nazis, Microsoft will fall and then life will be much better.
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
You got it wrong. I can not think of a single case where someone asked a simple question about Linux and have any experienced Linux user do anything but bend over backward trying to help them, for free, no charge.
No doubt you have helped people, and that's a good thing. All I'll say is that, until the Linux crowd comes up with a version that is easy to use for people who really don't want to know everything there is to know about computers and OSes and the rest, it won't get off the ground in the mass market and Microsoft will remain dominant.
If the rebuttal is that the mass market represents a society of idiots, well, then Linux remains a hobby. Maybe that's what a lot of people want, so they can continue to carp at Microsoft. On the other hand, maybe a light bulb will go on in someone's brain and they'll think to themselves, "Hey, maybe it's time computers were like cars that you can turn on and drive without having to open the hood."
Whoever does that will do well in life; will really help a lot of people; and will breathe life back into the computer industry, which is slowly strangling as Microsoft squeezes all the innovation out of it. I'm not going to be that person because I'm not a computer specialist. I'm just an idiot consumer who would like the damn things to work without my having to learn a bunch of software and hardware junk that, quite frankly, doesn't interest me in the least.
I'm glad other people are interested, and I'm willing to pay for superior products that I can actually use with confidence that they will work. That is the opportunity, multipled by oh, 100 million or so.
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Now, I have seen many cases where someone has asked a simple question about Windows and get flamed for it. After all this *is* an anti-Microsoft board. I would expect nothing less.
Agree on that one!
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And Silicon Valley has nothing really to do with Linux at all. That is the place where proprietary things come from.
Correct me if I wrong, but isn't it either Sun or Oracle whose CEO told everyone that privacy is dead, get used to it, and which is a big leader in the Linux stuff? What about this Red Hat company? They're from Silicon Valley, right? See, this is a problem for me. Microsoft is the devil I know, but I wonder if leaving them for Linux (when it's ready for "idiots" like me) will be like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
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Microsoft are the Nazis (big, bad, proprietary, the leader is an ugly dictator). Linux, GNU, Open Source are the Jews. Just like Hitler and the Nazis, Microsoft will fall and then life will be much better.
Depends on what comes next, doesn't it. We could get a situation that reminds us all of the Who song, Don't Get Fooled Again. I'm hopeful, but I'm also not holding my breath.
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: willysnout ]
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: willysnout ]
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: willysnout ]
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
No doubt you have helped people, and that's a good thing. All I'll say is that, until the Linux crowd comes up with a version that is easy to use for people who really don't want to know everything there is to know about computers and OSes and the rest, it won't get off the ground in the mass market and Microsoft will remain dominant.
If the rebuttal is that the mass market represents a society of idiots, well, then Linux remains a hobby. Maybe that's what a lot of people want, so they can continue to carp at Microsoft. On the other hand, maybe a light bulb will go on in someone's brain and they'll think to themselves, "Hey, maybe it's time computers were like cars that you can turn on and drive without having to open the hood."
Whoever does that will do well in life; will really help a lot of people; and will breathe life back into the computer industry, which is slowly strangling as Microsoft squeezes all the innovation out of it. I'm not going to be that person because I'm not a computer specialist. I'm just an idiot consumer who would like the damn things to work without my having to learn a bunch of software and hardware junk that, quite frankly, doesn't interest me in the least.
But what you have to understand is GNU/Linux are not a company. You continue to make it sound like the GNU/Linux movement is driven by a company. The issues you list are motivations for a company. Linux was written by people just like you. Linus Torvolds was originally going to school to become an engineer. The people that wrote GNU/Linux are many, from different backgrounds, from different countries. A lot of software was written by people just like you who were frustrated that there was no software that would do exactly as they wanted, or it was too expensive. So they decided to do something about it, and wrote their own, and then shared the source code with everyone else so they had a chance to make their own improvements, for free, no charge, no questions asked. Personally, I think that people who are that generous are just plain cool, and I will support them in any way I can, and I won't make demands of them. If I feel that strongly about something I will ask if they have thought of including it, if not, I will live with it, or if it is that important to me I will do the coding myself and share the changes.
I don't know if you have tried Linux but I believe there are several distributions of Linux that are much easier to install than Windows. I also believe that they are just as easy to use as Windows. And I believe they all work much more reliably than Windows.
I see the big issue right now is not ease of use, but off the shelf software such as games. There is no doubt that there are more games for Windows out there. And Linux will run a small percentage of those Windows programs, it certainly wont run them all. And usually the Windows programs will not run as good as they do in Windows. But hey, they are Windows programs, not Linux programs. Windows can not run *anything other than* Windows programs. Now if all of the off the shelf application developers will sell a copy of their software written for Linux as well as for Windows I believe Windows will die quickly. It's a chicken/egg type of issue though. Developers will not develop for Linux because of the small percentage of installed desktops, yet it is difficult to increase the percentage of installed desktops without the applications. But I believe it is coming, not as fast as I would like, but it's coming.
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Correct me if I wrong, but isn't it either Sun or Oracle whose CEO told everyone that privacy is dead, get used to it, and which is a big leader in the Linux stuff? What about this Red Hat company? They're from Silicon Valley, right? See, this is a problem for me. Microsoft is the devil I know, but I wonder if leaving them for Linux (when it's ready for "idiots" like me) will be like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
I will correct you. Neither Sun nor Oracle are Linux "leaders". In fact GNU/Linux is actually a direct threat to Sun's business (the Solaris operating system). Now what they both have realized is that if they want to survive they are going to have to jump on the Linux band wagon.
No, RedHat is not from Silicon Valley. They are from Raleigh, North Carolina. In fact they really don't have much to do with the development of GNU/Linux, but they have a nice way of tying all of the pieces together (GNU software, Linux kernel, the KDE software, and much more open source software) into an easy to install and use operating system. They also provide support which is primarily what you are paying for when you purchase the boxed set of RedHat (along with manuals). RedHat also makes revenue from training and certification programs. You have always been able to download the CD images from RedHat for free if you wish. Also, RedHat was originally (and still is) put together more with servers in mind. But I (and many others) find it to be a great desktop operating system. In fact I just read where RedHat may now be changing that thinking (or enhancing it) to take desktop systems more seriously.
Having said that, RedHat could close up shop tomorrow for any reason and the switch to another Linux distribution would be fairly painless. I find comfort in that. Now if Microsoft were to close up shop tomorrow there would be many who have built their businesses around Microsoft software in big trouble. I don't think either will happen any time real soon but you never know.
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Depends on what comes next, doesn't it. We could get a situation that reminds us all of the Who song, Don't Get Fooled Again. I'm hopeful, but I'm also not holding my breath.
You can only "Get Fooled Again" if you buy the newest release of Windows.
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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Introduce them to Linux by showing them it, i show my friendz a LInux desktop and they gawk at how muh work is in the free software, and no popups adds, or 10 second waits for programs to close. Someone told someone and i over heardthem saying "Linux is shareware, and it only works 90 days" so i got him and hit him in the head, he cryed and ran home, and for fuck sake... Im a Linux using geek ass pussy and skin whiter than an eskimos ass! DAMN!!!
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
There's a really good book you should read. It's called The Wealth of Nations. Author is Adam Smith. Published in 1776. Chapter 1 explains an idea called "division of labor." You know, not everyone does everything for themselves. Instead, they specialize. Some people are farmers, others are blacksmiths, others are computer geeks.
When the farmer needs help with his computer, he hires a geek. Payment can come in all kinds of forms. If not money, maybe eggs, because the geek has offloaded food production to someone who specializes in it.
So ... do you slaughter your own tofu or do you buy it at the natural foods co-op?
p.s.: Without problems there are no jobs. Without jobs, you sit on heating grates and beg for quarters.
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: willysnout ]
I dont expect from oridnary XPshit users to know about Active Directory - Know how to convert on Octal or Hex - Ipconfig - routing - Assemble their own PC - Create a RAID and yada yada.
BUT if your scanner wont export your Image to PowerPoint and you cant simply take the fucking time to say "HMMMMMMMMMM what if I go via PowerPoint and Insert the scanned image using PowerPoint? After All my boss has assinged to me to do that".
OR when you tell him that "Sir your CDROM has no Conflicts as I showed you. There is no Exlemation Mark on Device Manager. XP sees the CDPLAYER but it cant read shit. That means that the CDPLAYER is messed up." Yet he is MOST SURE that is a Software conflict: I bet my life a software is causing that". And you tell them "sir there is no way in Hell an Application did that. The driver might have been corrupted but as you see we reinstalled it"
But nooooooooooooooooooooooo...he knows better. Afterall he is a fucking construction worker and i am a Fucking Computer Science major.
My point is. I will Help people with things that are complicated. But dont be an ass and expect me to clean your ass when you take a dump.
I am not the smartest guy in the world. But I am smart enough to Read English (second Language btw) and see that fucking Insert in Poewr Point. Its called thinking LOGICAL.
I dont pass my self as an Expert in Computers. Far from it. I know i have to learn alot. And you will see soon enough the shitload of questions am preparing about Linux for the guys in here (Hello guys (http://smile.gif) )
And trust me. If i can do it. EVERYONE can figure out the simple shit.
I was a psych major before this (and a Fucking good one at that) and in Math I was always bad.
The first time I ever sat in front of a computer Running GUI I didnt even know what was that thing with the trackball and the thick wire for.
And i shit you not about this.
The only computer I used before that (i just played games and VERY light programing. Hello world programs) was an 128 AMSTRAD running BASIC LOCOMOTIVE 6.3 or 6.7.
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]
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quote:
willysnout:
I'm just an idiot consumer
don't put yourself down! there are no idiots, especially when they come on here saying well considered thoughts such as you do. Wasn't it you who was down on the posters here for calling you an idiot before? do yourself a service and don't call yourself an idiot.
A true idiot would never even know it!
and as stated above, it still seems as if you expect the free software crowd to give the support a company can give. It won't and has no interest in doing so. the free software foundation is a charity, and the many open source developers are hobbyists. However there are many companies, like redhat, mandrake, suse and so on, who will give you any and all the support you need if you buy a licence from them.
The main hurdle when it comes to 'ease of use' is the old chestnut of 'sticking to what you know'. To be frank, if you know how to use windows (or MacOS or whatever) and you now want to use a totally new system, you will have to learn how to do so. It is unrealistic to expect a system to behave in exactly the same way as a different system just to stop people having to learn how to use it. Especially since linux has shitloads more features and abilities than windows which would never be used if it had a windows clone interface.
Anyway, enough blabbering on from me...
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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Originally posted by VoidMain:
Linux was written by people just like you.
Not quite!
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A lot of software was written by people just like you who were frustrated that there was no software that would do exactly as they wanted, or it was too expensive. So they decided to do something about it, and wrote their own, and then shared the source code with everyone else so they had a chance to make their own improvements, for free, no charge, no questions asked. Personally, I think that people who are that generous are just plain cool, and I will support them in any way I can, and I won't make demands of them.
I can sympathize with your perspective, and in some ways I quite agree. Still, though, I'm willing to pay for something that works well and frees me to do the stuff that I really want to do. This should not brand me an "idiot."
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I don't know if you have tried Linux but I believe there are several distributions of Linux that are much easier to install than Windows. I also believe that they are just as easy to use as Windows. And I believe they all work much more reliably than Windows.
The following is a serious, good-faith question: Can you recommend the least painful way for a non-specialist like myself, who doesn't want to become a specialist but who just wants to "drive the car," to check this out?
I'll genuinely and sincerely thank you for a real answer to my question. I am interested. Maybe there's a book out there? I only want to know what I really need to know, or to put it differently, I want to start swimming in the shallow end of the pool.
All of this stuff might be second nature to you, but not to most people and that includes me. I have specialized knowledge in certain areas but not computers.
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I see the big issue right now is not ease of use, but off the shelf software such as games. There is no doubt that there are more games for Windows out there.
I don't care about games. I want an office suite that will be able to read documents and spreadsheets and powerpoints created in MS Office 2000 and Office 95. I'm not a "power user." Those documents are not complicated.
Linux needs to be able to run Quicken. I need a scheduling and synchronization program that will work with my Palm Pilot. I've got software like Black Ice firewall, McAfee Virus Scan, and Turbo Tax. Will Linux run these things?
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And Linux will run a small percentage of those Windows programs, it certainly wont run them all. And usually the Windows programs will not run as good as they do in Windows. But hey, they are Windows programs, not Linux programs. Windows can not run *anything other than* Windows programs. Now if all of the off the shelf application developers will sell a copy of their software written for Linux as well as for Windows I believe Windows will die quickly. It's a chicken/egg type of issue though. Developers will not develop for Linux because of the small percentage of installed desktops, yet it is difficult to increase the percentage of installed desktops without the applications. But I believe it is coming, not as fast as I would like, but it's coming.
Maybe given my level of involvement, it's best for me to wait a couple years. That's my inclination given the situation you describe.
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I will correct you. Neither Sun nor Oracle are Linux "leaders". In fact GNU/Linux is actually a direct threat to Sun's business (the Solaris operating system). Now what they both have realized is that if they want to survive they are going to have to jump on the Linux band wagon.
No, RedHat is not from Silicon Valley. They are from Raleigh, North Carolina. In fact they really don't have much to do with the development of GNU/Linux, but they have a nice way of tying all of the pieces together (GNU software, Linux kernel, the KDE software, and much more open source software) into an easy to install and use operating system.
They also provide support which is primarily what you are paying for when you purchase the boxed set of RedHat (along with manuals). RedHat also makes revenue from training and certification programs. You have always been able to download the CD images from RedHat for free if you wish. Also, RedHat was originally (and still is) put together more with servers in mind. But I (and many others) find it to be a great desktop operating system. In fact I just read where RedHat may now be changing that thinking (or enhancing it) to take desktop systems more seriously.
Having said that, RedHat could close up shop tomorrow for any reason and the switch to another Linux distribution would be fairly painless. I find comfort in that. Now if Microsoft were to close up shop tomorrow there would be many who have built their businesses around Microsoft software in big trouble. I don't think either will happen any time real soon but you never know.
Thanks for the information. But what about this "Star Office" that I've read is the best Linux office suite? Isn't that somehow tied into Sun or Oracle? The other thing I wonder is the privacy and spybot stuff. I'm convinced that Microsoft is not to be trusted in the least, but what about the hackability of my computer if I switch over to Linux, and being monitored, etc.?
I'm sure I live under an illusion right now, and I'm willing to listen to exactly how and why I am. But for the moment, I've got a personal firewall, a virus scan program and a couple different programs (Windows Washer and a shareware thing) that wipe out cookies and other trackers, plus one that searches and ddestroys "spybots."
In the Linux world, are there similar programs that go out and kill all this crap that gets deposited on your computer? Ever since I got these firewalls and "washer" programs, I've been just stunned at how much "detrius" a computer collects after being on the Web for, oh, an hour.
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quote:
Originally posted by bazoukas:
if your scanner wont export your Image to PowerPoint and you cant simply take the fucking time to say "HMMMMMMMMMM what if I go via PowerPoint and Insert the scanned image using PowerPoint? After All my boss has assinged to me to do that".
OR when you tell him that "Sir your CDROM has no Conflicts as I showed you. There is no Exlemation Mark on Device Manager. XP sees the CDPLAYER but it cant read shit. That means that the CDPLAYER is messed up." Yet he is MOST SURE that is a Software conflict: I bet my life a software is causing that". And you tell them "sir there is no way in Hell an Application did that. The driver might have been corrupted but as you see we reinstalled it"
What on earth are you talking about?
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And trust me. If i can do it. EVERYONE can figure out the simple shit. I was a psych major before this (and a Fucking good one at that)
So what sub-set of psych did you major in? Put-Downs 101?
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Originally posted by Calum:
it still seems as if you expect the free software crowd to give the support a company can give. It won't and has no interest in doing so. the free software foundation is a charity, and the many open source developers are hobbyists. However there are many companies, like redhat, mandrake, suse and so on, who will give you any and all the support you need if you buy a licence from them.
I am not a free-rider, and am quite willing to pay for products. I'd really like to see an alternative to Microsoft, which I regard as increasingly anti-consumer. My comments about "the Linux crowd" have been aimed at the "ubertech" mentality that brands non-specialists as idiots.
I think that's got to change. I have specialized knowledge in certain areas. I *sell* this knowledge for a living. And when I sell it, I assure you that I don't do so with arrogance, intended or otherwise. Arrogance is the big danger with specialists.
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The main hurdle when it comes to 'ease of use' is the old chestnut of 'sticking to what you know'. To be frank, if you know how to use windows (or MacOS or whatever) and you now want to use a totally new system, you will have to learn how to do so. It is unrealistic to expect a system to behave in exactly the same way as a different system just to stop people having to learn how to use it. Especially since linux has shitloads more features and abilities than windows which would never be used if it had a windows clone interface.
I hear you. I guess what I'm saying is that, in the quest to run a 3-1/2 minute mile, I need to be sure I can walk to the grocery store. Windows will do that. In my own case, I doubt I'll get too involved with Linux until I know it can do the stuff I am doing now, just as easily and reliably as Windows does.
I know I sound like the MS salesman, but I'm not. All I'm saying is that if I want to write a letter and print it, Windows and Office will do that. I can send e-mails easily with Outlook. I manage my checkbook with Quicken and my taxes with Turbo Tax. I've got a nice little shareware program that displays photos. I've got Virus Scan, Black Ice Defender, Windows Washer and some other stuff for security.
Those are "basics." If that's not available and easily used in Linux, then I won't switch. Which I realize is no skin off your ass, but since this is a forum where people give their views I figured my thought process might be of interest. Most people here seem to have a level of knowledge that's more specialized than mine. What I'm trying to do is inject the perspective of a more typical user.
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
I am not a free-rider, and am quite willing to pay for products. I'd really like to see an alternative to Microsoft, which I regard as increasingly anti-consumer. My comments about "the Linux crowd" have been aimed at the "ubertech" mentality that brands non-specialists as idiots.
I think that's got to change. I have specialized knowledge in certain areas. I *sell* this knowledge for a living. And when I sell it, I assure you that I don't do so with arrogance, intended or otherwise. Arrogance is the big danger with specialists.
Certainly if you are "selling" your knowlege you have to treat the customer with respect if you intend to sell anything. I think you are seeing the few 12 year old "wanna-be Linux gurus because they think it is cool" kids and then believing all Linux lovers/users/programmers are like that. Well, you have those rotten apples on both sides of the fence. Those 12 year olds are barely out of diapers, let alone any sort of Linux expert (no offense intended to all you 12 year old "wanna-be Linux gurus because they think it is cool" types). (http://smile.gif)
If you have everything you need and you are happy with it then I would suggest that you stick with what you have (seems like we've come to this conclusion about a month ago). But if you are interested in checking Linux out and are worried about screwing something up on the install I would suggest getting a copy of that "DemoLinux" CD that some have been talking about here. I personally have never heard of it or have ever tried it but it sounds like you don't have to install anything. You just boot it and run it directly from CD and it will not change anything on your hard drive. I'm sure it will not run as fast and there will be several limitations compared to a fully installed Linux distribution but it will give you taste of what you would be up against.
For DemoLinux see: http://www.demolinux.org/ (http://www.demolinux.org/)
quote:
I hear you. I guess what I'm saying is that, in the quest to run a 3-1/2 minute mile, I need to be sure I can walk to the grocery store. Windows will do that. In my own case, I doubt I'll get too involved with Linux until I know it can do the stuff I am doing now, just as easily and reliably as Windows does.
Again, if what you have works for you, stick with it. If you want to try out Linux without the hassle look for one of those DemoLinux CDs. I believe SuSe has a Live Eval CD that you can download and boot/run from CD as well, you might want to check that out since is it a popular distribution (anyone have any experience or suggestions on a live eval "run from CD" Linux distro?).
quote:
I know I sound like the MS salesman, but I'm not. All I'm saying is that if I want to write a letter and print it, Windows and Office will do that. I can send e-mails easily with Outlook. I manage my checkbook with Quicken and my taxes with Turbo Tax. I've got a nice little shareware program that displays photos. I've got Virus Scan, Black Ice Defender, Windows Washer and some other stuff for security.
Those are "basics." If that's not available and easily used in Linux, then I won't switch. Which I realize is no skin off your ass, but since this is a forum where people give their views I figured my thought process might be of interest. Most people here seem to have a level of knowledge that's more specialized than mine. What I'm trying to do is inject the perspective of a more typical user.
There are several Office suites that can do what you want (don't know if they would be up to your specifications but they work for most of us). I used to use Quicken, there is GNUCash that comes with Linux which is similar. I use "Tax Cut" for taxes, however it is one of the two programs that I boot up Windows for (it may work under Wine, I've never tried it). Fortunately I only have to use it once a year. Linux comes with it's own firewall software. You don't need virus software on Linux. In fact all the security tools you really need come with all Linux distributions that I am aware of.
So as you can see, even "I" am not 100% Microsoft free. There are a couple of applications that I use that the software vendors have not ported to Linux. But those two applications are not written by Microsoft and it is not the fault of Linux that these two companies have not written a version for Linux. Actually with TaxCut I still do not have to reboot my computer into Windows to run it. I use a piece of software called "VMware" that allows me to run a copy of Windows "inside" of Linux, and thus run the application I need to run without having to get out of Linux.
But for 99.9% of the things I use a computer for I find that Linux does a far better job. I still need Windows for that 0.1%, hopefully that will change soon. And I certainly don't want to have to purchase Windows XP just to run the newer version of TaxCut. I guess I would go back to paper filing if it came to that. Now, that's me. Your situation might be different. You might try the DemoLinux and think it's not for you. That's ok too. Use what works for you. I certainly would not want to suggest you go out and install Mandrake, or RedHat, or SuSe, then have you run into all sorts of trouble and get all upset and come back and start jumping all over my case. I'm not making any profit off of any suggestion or from any Linux distribution so why be subjected to that?
Also, Sun bought out a company called "Star Division" who originally wrote the office suite "StarOffice". StarOffice is a very nice office suite and it is *very* much like Microsoft Office and is very compatible with it (and many formats from other office suites). Now, Sun has released the source code from StarOffice for the open source project OpenOffice.org. This really doesn't have much to do with GNU/Linux other than you can get a version of the office suite compiled for Linux. You can also get a Windows version.
Even if you decide not to use Linux I would suggest that you download the Windows version of OpenOffice from http://www.openoffice.org/ (http://www.openoffice.org/) and give it a shot. I think you will be pleasently surprised. It will likely do everything that you use Microsoft Office for and with very little learning curve. You can download it for no charge or I believe you can even order a copy on CD if you don't want to download it. And of course you can buy "StarOffice" from http://www.sun.com/ (http://www.sun.com/) for a fraction of the cost of Microsoft Office and get documentation and support from Sun, and a couple of proprietary/licensed features that are not included with "OpenOffice".
There are several of us who find that Linux does work better for us and we are here to help others who have a totally open mind and are willing to give it a shot, even if it means frustration in the beginning because it is new/different than what they are used to. So like Microsoft's EULA, I certainly won't "guarantee" anything. But what can it hurt giving it an honest try?
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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Willysnout:
You have many questions, many of them answered in this forum time and again. Search around and you will probably find what you need. However some things to start you off down the road.
First off, and without meaning to piss you off, I don't give a rats for anyone not prepared to open their mind and make an effort. Anyone that tied up in themselves is a waste of space, no matter what subject they may specialise in. Now hopefully that has not pissed you off, you see that statement for what it is.
I suggest a little surfing. The office suite you are talking about is Staroffice, and it was purchased by Sun and is now being sold as a viable contender to M$ office. Here is the point. There are many viable contenders to M$ office, including Lotus and Corel, their problem is that .Doc is a proprietary format to M$ and as such they have to reverse engineer the document to convert it, as M$ refuse to publish this format. However openoffice have done a good job, and that was what was sold to Sun. So check out www.openoffice.org (http://www.openoffice.org) Try the package out and see what you think, it's free, it's also NOT staroffice, as Openoffice is still under further development. I like staroffice.
Yes you do pick up detritus surfing, and most of it is from IE. Change your browser, this will make an effect that should please you. There are issues with the different browsers, but you can report your bug to the browser makers, and they will take active steps to cure it, although sometimes it's down to the fact that many websites write to M$ code practice, and not to the world wide web standards.mozilla (http://www.mozilla.org)
opera (http://www.opera.com)
I recently converted from Windows, still am slowly, but I am at the stage where my next comp will be 100% Linux compatable, and any software manufacturer that refuses to produce for it will not get my business, and tough on them. I find it far more stable, far more user friendly, it's a different way of thinking, that's all. As for virus and firewall issues, yes there are such products, but they are minor requirements, Linux is more secure by default of it's structure at the basic level. Yes you do need more knowledge, you have to understand what happens in a firewall to configure it properly, otherwise someone else is in control of your system, and you HAVE to trust them, but this is true of windows, it's just that people don't think that way, Linux does not let you off the hook because you're ignorant. You wouldn't walk out on a rainy day without protection, you need to learn to use an umberella, likewise with surfing the net, it seems tricky at first, but you soon realise you were letting your fears get in the way.
My suggestion to you is this. There are alternatives to EVERYTHING M$ make. Try them instead. Send e-mail to Quicken asking for Linux versions. Or get a Mac, Quicken write their software for them. If you really are that scared of Linux use Mac, whilst I have issue with them, they do make a quality product that does successfully compete.
It's down to you, we here hate M$, they have stiffled computer development into a backroad, as we see it, and they have committed attrocities along the way including piracy.
Secondly I believe in open source, I believe no company has the right to release closed source code, I believe that it is against my human rights to freedom, I believe it breaks the American constitution, and I have no way of proving they have never stolen code I may have written.
Maybe this helps.
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Voidman and pkd, thanks for the responses. Both of you had some good points in the "debate," and some good practical information. I appreciate it. Two comments and one question, then I'll go away and check out linux over the next several months.
The comment is that I'm not as closed-minded as I might appear. I'm actually getting more open to moving away from Microsoft as a result of the XP fiasco, and their attempts to take over the Internet with this Palladium thing. But I'm also very practical minded, and one facet of this is that I really don't want to be a beta tester science project nor do I want to have to know how to build the car in order to drive it. It's a balancing act, and maybe linux just ain't for me and I'll have to put up and shut up with Microsoft.
The second comment is to Voidman, who noted that some people who are active in that community have a mental age of 12, but that's not a fair description of the whole community. That's an excellent point. Thanks for saying it, and I will try hard to remember it. In my work life I have been close to some very specialized, truly arrogant pricks and therefore am hyper-sensitive to overweening geeks of all kind, comptuer and otherwise. It's a hot button for me because I regard the point of specialized knowledge to be to use those talents for a wider purpose rather than to use your knowledge as an extension of your insecurities. That said, my reaction goes too far as well.
Now for the question: Do you folks have any recommendation for a book on linux for beginners? If not that, maybe some ideas on how to start in the shallow end of the pool? The Linux boards on this site seem to be dominated by arguing techno-nerds. I just want to figure out what it's about and leave the religious wars to others.
Any recommendations would be most appreciated. Thanks much.
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I would suggest that before you spend any money, or buy any books that you download a copy of DemoLinux and just boot it up from your CD. You may find that it is easier than you think. In fact, since I recommended it, I am right now in the process of downloading it and checking it out myself and will give you a better assessment of it after I try it out.
Do you have a high speed internet connection and a CD burner?
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
I would suggest that before you spend any money, or buy any books that you download a copy of DemoLinux and just boot it up from your CD. You may find that it is easier than you think. In fact, since I recommended it, I am right now in the process of downloading it and checking it out myself and will give you a better assessment of it after I try it out.
Do you have a high speed internet connection and a CD burner?
Yes to the questions. I've been to the site and am thinking about how to download this program. I've got a bunch of other more urgent stuff on the to-do list this week, but maybe I'll try it out next week.
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Well here is the one I am downloading now:
ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/demolinux/3.0/demolinux-3.01.iso (http://ftp://ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/demolinux/3.0/demolinux-3.01.iso)
I've only got about 25% of it downloaded right now, it seems to be a slow link for me as I am only getting between 10 and 60KB/s. Now it is a very large file (~650MB) so it will take a couple of hours even over a high speed connection. I would suggest when you are finished using your computer for the evening, you start it downloading and it should be there for you the next morning.
It is a CD ISO image (a standard CD image format). Any CD burning software should be able to create a CD from this file but you will have to look in your help or manual for your CD software to determine the proper way for that particular software to write an ISO file to CD. You can not just copy it to the CD as that will not work.
I should have my CD burned and tested some time this evening. I will let you know if I think it is worth your trouble.
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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ahhh, demo linux, i have had both good and bad experiances with it. first it doesn't like my dads thinkpad 1400. but i used it to save my friends winxp computer. so if it doesn't work like promised don't give up hope immediabn'ly. and as for my job, im getting ready to recommend a copy of winnt 4.0 for a guy that needs to upgrade the os on his laptop. suprise, linux isn't an answer unfourtantly. he already knows howto use windows, its not going to change, and im giong to get paid for it, though i will try to show him apps like openoffice and mozilla. im pushing for them to decide on a new macintosh though. well, have phun
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
I should have my CD burned and tested some time this evening. I will let you know if I think it is worth your trouble.
Thanks. I don't know if this will be informative, but I have Roxio "Easy CD Creator 5 Platinum" for burning CDs.
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hmmm, as long as it has a make disc from image option, or something like that. thats how my dads cd software works. it should work. ill have to see if anyone i know knows how to burn a .iso file with the cd software you have. and for specializing in a perticiular area, not to be too nosy, but what exactly do you do. i have always been curious. and if you want to know, i am a junior at high school/*other wise known as elenthgrade*/
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Well, here are some instructions on linuxiso.com that have a section for "Easy CD Creator":
http://www.linuxiso.org/viewdoc.php/winoncdrwin.html (http://www.linuxiso.org/viewdoc.php/winoncdrwin.html)
Hopefully the instructions match up with the version you have...
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quote:
Originally posted by choasforages:
/*other wise known as elenthgrade*/
elenthgrade? I think I missed that one. Or was that the one right before twethgrade? (http://smile.gif) Hey, did you happen to check your PMs? You asked for something in another thread...
[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
So what sub-set of psych did you major in? Put-Downs 101?
And your problem is?
Read my whole post and try to get my point. I think you are too sensitive for your own good.
I used a real life example (that happened to me) of morons not wanting to learn even the Basics "How to install a driver" and so on.
And no it was Cognitive psychology. And two courses were on Ph.D ( offered to me by my Teacher)level while i was a Sophmore.
You asked. Dont feel sorry that you did.
Edit: i edited this post three times after I saw that whats his name is not bad afterall.
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
I hear you. I guess what I'm saying is that, in the quest to run a 3-1/2 minute mile, I need to be sure I can walk to the grocery store. Windows will do that. In my own case, I doubt I'll get too involved with Linux until I know it can do the stuff I am doing now, just as easily and reliably as Windows does.
I know I sound like the MS salesman, but I'm not. All I'm saying is that if I want to write a letter and print it, Windows and Office will do that. I can send e-mails easily with Outlook. I manage my checkbook with Quicken and my taxes with Turbo Tax. I've got a nice little shareware program that displays photos. I've got Virus Scan, Black Ice Defender, Windows Washer and some other stuff for security.
Those are "basics." If that's not available and easily used in Linux, then I won't switch. Which I realize is no skin off your ass, but since this is a forum where people give their views I figured my thought process might be of interest. Most people here seem to have a level of knowledge that's more specialized than mine. What I'm trying to do is inject the perspective of a more typical user.
you make a lot of good points, but i still detect a bit of 'walk before i can run' in your typical computer user spiel. No offence intended, there btw...
Re: StarOffice, yes it is proprietary and is from Sun Microsystems. It does most of what MSWord does, as well as most of what WordPerfect does and a lot of other stuff too. Or so i have heard. Version 5.2 i think is still free from Sun, however we are now (two?) a version or so ahead and the current version costs. It will also run on windows. There is a free and open source version of this program called OpenOffice.org (guess where their homepage is!) and it basically does all the stuff that StarOffice does, bar a couple of features, but for free. It runs on basically any OS.
Now, i would recommend a dual boot setup for anybody in the position of needing windows results in a hurry, but wanting to use linux eventually. I found that that way worked (and is working) very well for me. With a major distro (such as mandrake or red hat) you can set up a dual boot very easily, and configure it just as easily once you have read the manual pages for the bootloader you are using. (you will likely not need to configure it though, since a pretty good config file will probably be written for you by the installer) This approach is what i recommend, and it does not cost a penny more than running windows on its own...
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quote:
Originally posted by bazoukas:
And your problem is?
Read my whole post and try to get my point. I think you are too sensitive for your own good.
I stand corrected. It's not Put-Downs 101. The 100-level classes are introductory level. I'd say Put-Downs 301. Pre-requisite: Introduction to Arrogance 101.
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
you make a lot of good points, but i still detect a bit of 'walk before i can run' in your typical computer user spiel. No offence intended, there btw...
Absolutely I intend to walk before I can run. No apologies for it, either. Why should anyone feel guilty for having such an attitude? I don't want to experiment with linux and find my Explorer book marks destroyed, my Quicken files ruined, my Turbo Tax files destroyed, my Outlook files gone, etc., because of some basic mistake I made because I couldn't walk before I tried to run.
Normally, this kind of precautionary instinct would be a good thing. I don't understand why I should feel as if I've made a faux pax by wanting to be very careful, especially seeing as how I am not a computer specialist. I figure I ought to be aware of my limitations and work within them, especially in the beginning.
quote:
Re: StarOffice, yes it is proprietary and is from Sun Microsystems. It does most of what MSWord does, as well as most of what WordPerfect does and a lot of other stuff too. Or so i have heard. Version 5.2 i think is still free from Sun, however we are now (two?) a version or so ahead and the current version costs. It will also run on windows. There is a free and open source version of this program called OpenOffice.org (guess where their homepage is!) and it basically does all the stuff that StarOffice does, bar a couple of features, but for free. It runs on basically any OS.
If you use Star Office, does it communicate back to Sun in any way about your usage of the program? Given their attitude about privacy (privacy doesn't exist, get used to it), my guard is up on this issue and I frankly don't want to patronize them if there is a good alternative. Funny thing about this is that there's nothing sensitive in my Word documents.
It's not like I'm trading child porn or writing terror plots. I just hate the idea of corporate big brother with a true passion. It's a form of arrogance, which is something I really detest. The idea that a CEO can declare that privacy is dead and we must get used to it is one of more most memorably outrageous things I've heard in quite a long time.
quote:
Now, i would recommend a dual boot setup for anybody in the position of needing windows results in a hurry, but wanting to use linux eventually.
What is a "dual boot setup?"
quote:
I found that that way worked (and is working) very well for me. With a major distro (such as mandrake or red hat) you can set up a dual boot very easily, and configure it just as easily once you have read the manual pages for the bootloader you are using.
What is a distro? I have heard of Red Hat, i.e., a company that make linux software, but what's "mandrake?" And what's a "bootloader?"
quote:
(you will likely not need to configure it though, since a pretty good config file will probably be written for you by the installer) This approach is what i recommend, and it does not cost a penny more than running windows on its own...
A config file written by the installer. Could you explain this? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Maybe there's a book or web site that goes through all this basic terminology for those of us just getting started?
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ok you need to search on the net for a bit and start reading.
Dual boot setup - running two OSes on the same computer ie windows and Linux
distro - distribution
Red Hat is a version or "flavour" of Linux
Mandrake is an other flavour of Linux (held by alot of people to be the best version on Linux for new users)
bootloader - A program used to select what OS you want to boot into (ie lilo)
config file - tells a program how/what you want it to do.
The installer should take care of all the techniqual stuff for you, it should ask you if you what to dual boot(or something similiar) and just follow the on screen prompts (http://tongue.gif)
I would suggest not using RedHat as it is primarily server software and is not designed for a workstation.
Also go to some Linux distro sites (ie www.mandrakelinux.com (http://www.mandrakelinux.com) or www.redhat.com (http://www.redhat.com) and look for documentation or similair)
hope this helps (http://smile.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by the_black_angel:
hope this helps (http://smile.gif)
It does. Thanks very much.
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
I stand corrected. It's not Put-Downs 101. The 100-level classes are introductory level. I'd say Put-Downs 301. Pre-requisite: Introduction to Arrogance 101.
My God Man. LOLOL
Are you on weed? Where the hell did you see arrogance in my posts? Read my two first posts again if you will and try to see my point. If you feel the need though for power trips in the Internet well what can I say, you are special.
Dont be such a sensitive jackass.
You dont sound like a moron so stop the moronic attitude here.
By the way if you want a good book pick up. RedHat 7.3 Bible.
It comes with RH7.3 (3 Cds) and all the starting help you will need. And as for applications, there are more in RH than you will ever need and they do work. You will see. From Word applications that can read MS WORD, graphics, DVD players and so on.
Give it a try. Even if you dont like it, you have nothing to lose.
And instalation is fast and easy no matter what kind of configuration you choose.
Just remember Linux does not work like Windows.
Wanna hug now? Am all for for hugs.
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gakk!! i meant running before you can walk! sorry! :D :D :D
of course you should walk before you can run! sorry about that!! :D
Anyway, yes, mandrake and red hat are two companies who make their own operating systems and sell it. They also make free versions with all the pay software taken out of it. It is usually a GNU system with a linux kernel (this is the setup that most people refer to as "linux" nowadays). there are a lot of other companies who do this too. In addition to selling and giving away systems, they sell licences for different types of support for those systems. These licences are NOT required for these systems (unlike windows) but they help you get support right from the distributors.
re: bootloaders, okay, what you do is you set aside an area (a partition) of your hard drive and allow windows to stay installed on that bit, then you set aside a similar area and put linux on that. The mandrake installer helps you do this with an easy point/click tool and i think most other major distributors do too. It's best if you firsttly leave a few megabytes of free space between the two partitions, so windows doesn't screw your linux partition when you run defrag, and also it's best to have a third or fourth partition for your files, to save you time when windows needs to scandisk (this idea probably needs more explanation but this is not the place) The bootloader is the thing that your computer reads when you switch the machine on, and gives you a choice of which of the systems you want to boot into. In practice a bootloader can be textual, point and click, have pictures or not, you might get a menu or have to type in the name of the system, and you (depending on the loader) can have as many different systems as you like (FreeBSD, NetBSD, DR-DOS, MSWindows3.11, WindowsNT, GNU/Hurd, GNU/Linux, Solaris 8) all on the same machine, if you have the disk space!
okay, more stuff next time, i need to go and do stuff! i hope this was of help too, willysnout...
ps - oh yes, and re: StarOffice spying on you, i think it's not really a worry, however if you want to completely eliminate this concern, then use OpenOffice.org instead. You can get it and its full info at http://openoffice.org (http://openoffice.org)
it runs on many systems including linux and windows, and it is free. It is based on SttarOffice but it is open source, so if there was any spyware in itt, somebody would spot it quick, take it out and redistribute it. (this has not happened, and will not, since this reason is enough of a deterrant to make it not ever be tried, if you get my meaning).
[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]
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Willie, ran into a little "snag" with that DemoLinux link I gave you. I saw two different ISO images on http://www.linuxiso.org/ (http://www.linuxiso.org/) for v3.01 of DemoLinux. One had StarOffice and the other did not. Well, I figured you would want to check out StarOffice as well so that's the one I suggested. Well, it turns out the one with StarOffice is 700MB and the one without is 650MB. Now CDs are only capable of holding 650MB so I am confused about the StarOffice image unless it is meant to go on a DVD. It doesn't really mention anything about it anywhere that I can find. All I know is I downloaded the 700MB image without paying much attention, wrote it to CD and of course it ran out of space on the CD. Does anyone else know anything more about this 700MB DemoLinux CD?
At any rate, I wouldn't waste my time downloading that link I gave you before. Here is the link to the 650MB CD image which I am downloading now and will hopefully get tested. I seem to be getting very slow transfer rates to the DemoLinux server though:
http://www.linuxiso.org/download.php/338/demolinux-3.01-650.iso (http://www.linuxiso.org/download.php/338/demolinux-3.01-650.iso)
Maybe the SuSe live CD eval would be a better way to go (another one I have no personal experience with but will also check out at some point). Sorry about the run around.
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CD recordable media comes in 650MB and 700MB variants, as well as the 270MB(?) variant that is the mini disk.
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Ahhh, guess I've never seen the 700MB media. I've only ever bought the 650's, guess I'm behind the times. Thanks for the info!
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quote:
Originally posted by bazoukas:
Where the hell did you see arrogance in my posts? <snip> Dont be such a sensitive jackass.
You dont sound like a moron so stop the moronic attitude here.
Res Ipsa Loquitor
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Calum, Void, pkd:
Thanks for the information in your postings. It is very helpful. The next several days are full of other activities for me, but I'll go do this stuff next week. BTW, my CD-Rs are 700Mb, so I think I'll be able to get the OS and the office program onto one CD.
Thanks again. I appreciate your help.
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No problem, but I also happen to notice that the version of StarOffice that comes on that CD is only version 5.2. The new one is 6.0. I personally never liked 5.2 because it has a funky integrated desktop that I thought was very clumsy. The new version 6.0 is completely different, nearly identical to Microsoft Office. So just keep that in mind. As I mentioned, you might download the OpenOffice 1.0 for Windows which is the same thing as StarOffice 6.0. Wow, that's almost confusing....
And I'm still working on downloading that other DemoLinux CD so I can play along.. Guess it would have been quicker to go find some 700MB CDRWs...
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i have hardly ever seen 650mb cdr/w's anymore, and i think you can overburn 650 meg disc's anyway
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Well I had been buying them by the 100s but I haven't been using a lot lately so.. And these definitely would not burn to 700. Do you need a fairly new CDRW drive to be able to burn that much data? I have two drives and the newest one is at least a couple of years old...
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well, the cdburner that just went toast was a 4x4x16 drive.thats all i know
and it could burn 700meg cd's
[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: choasforages ]
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The Silicon Valley has a great deal of open source.. Cygnus was down here.... I tihnk they were open source.. I don't know.. my dad worked for them for a while.. and he's the one that told me the joys of Linux... and he said it was open... anyhoo... we got a number of open source..things... But.. I still say Finland could easily take over... but.. I like Finland... AN dI stopped making sence...
Dah..
anyhoo. yeah.. we got a good supply of open source in San Jose area...
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Sure there is open source there. But open source is everywhere was my point. Silicon valley certainly provides no leadership for open source, that would be defeating the entire concept. And I'm sure you know that Cygwin is now owned by RedHat. Like RedHat, Cygwin is mostly made up of "community" developed software.
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Ok, finally got the 650MB version of DemoLinux downloaded and burned. I don't know what the difference is between that and the 700MB version. I thought the difference was the 700MB version included StarOffice 5.2. But it seems the 650MB version also includes it.
At any rate, I booted it up and played around a little and here are my thoughts:
1) It's Debian based (not a plus or minus, just a note)
2) Since it is all run from CD it is obviously much slower than an installed distribution
3) Includes the older KDE 2.x desktop (3.x would be much better in several respects, fonts most noticabely)
4) Includes the older Gnome 1.x (2.x would be better, along with a copy of Evolution)
5) StarOffice 5.2 is not nearly as nice as 6.0
But overall I think it is a pretty good demo. It's packed with a lot of stuff on one CD and it should give a good example to someone who has never used Linux. If it had the following I would say it would be a perfect demo CD:
1) KDE 3
2) Gnome 2 with Evolution
3) OpenOffice.org 1.0
4) Mozilla instead of Netscape
I think they have already creatively used the space on the CD and I don't know if the above upgrades could be squeezed on a CD without sacrificing a bunch of other stuff. I would say it's worth a download and I can see where it would make a good recovery CD. There is also a DemoLinux HOWTO if you want to build your own version of the DemoLinux CD.
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
Res Ipsa Loquitor
Όποιος γεννηθεί απ` την κότα, την κοπριά θε να σκαλίζει πάντα.
[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]
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quote:
Originally posted by VoidMain:
1) It's Debian based (not a plus or minus, just a note)
What is "Debian?"
quote:
1) KDE 3
2) Gnome 2 with Evolution
3) OpenOffice.org 1.0
4) Mozilla instead of Netscape
I think they have already creatively used the space on the CD and I don't know if the above upgrades could be squeezed on a CD without sacrificing a bunch of other stuff. I would say it's worth a download and I can see where it would make a good recovery CD. There is also a DemoLinux HOWTO if you want to build your own version of the DemoLinux CD.
Questions:
Is it possible for me to assemble the pieces that you've recommended and burn those onto a CD? I suppose I could go to various web sites and get them, but I wonder if there's some kind of software "glue" that I need for these things to work together. Is that what the DemoLinux "HOWTO" will discuss?
What is "Gnome 2 with Evolution?"
Is it better to use Open Office 1.0 or Star Office 6.0?
Sorry to keep asking all this stuff, but I want to prepare this correctly so I get a good, accurate demo the first time. Knowing myself, I'm likely to give the demo one shot and make a decision at that point whether to proceed into linux or wait a couple years.
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quote:
Originally posted by willysnout:
What is "Debian?"
Debian Linux is a distribution of Linux. It would be the equivelant/competitor to "RedHat Linux", or "Mandrake Linux", or "SuSe Linux". See http://www.debian.org/ (http://www.debian.org/) if you want to know more about the Debian Linux distribution.
quote:
Questions:
Is it possible for me to assemble the pieces that you've recommended and burn those onto a CD? I suppose I could go to various web sites and get them, but I wonder if there's some kind of software "glue" that I need for these things to work together. Is that what the DemoLinux "HOWTO" will discuss?
Well it would be possible but I would definately not suggest it for someone just starting. This would be an "advanced" concept for rebuilding a DemoLinux CD. It would be similar task to creating/modifying a "run from CD" Windows CD. Only really advanced users would be able to accomplish such a task in either case.
quote:
[KDE]
What is "Gnome 2 with Evolution?"
[/QB]
Think of Gnome as the equivelant of the Microsoft Windows desktop. Gnome 2 is the latest release simililar to a newer release of the Windows desktop. KDE is another equivelant desktop. In Linux and UNIX these desktop GUI systems are called "window managers". Actually KDE is probably closer to the Windows interface. DemoLinux (and most distributions) include both KDE and Gnome and you get to pick which one you wish to use each time you log in to your computer.
Evolution is nearly identical in look/feel/functionality to Microsoft Outlook (a mail reader, contact list, task list, etc etc). It is written by a company called Ximian (the founder of Ximian was/is a major developer of the Gnome window manager, in fact Ximian has it's own version of Gnome). See http://www.ximian.com/ (http://www.ximian.com/) for more information on Ximian Gnome and Evolution.
quote:
Is it better to use Open Office 1.0 or Star Office 6.0?
Well, OpenOffice 1.0 and StarOffice 6.0 are nearly identical as I mentioned as they both share the same source code. OpenOffice is open source, freely downloadable. StarOffice you will need to get from sun. It is the commercial version and you can not get it for free but you do get support from Sun. So you can make up your own mind on this one depending on your needs. I would certainly suggest trying OpenOffice first so you can "try before you buy". Also read the FAQ on http://www.openoffice.org/ (http://www.openoffice.org/) which list the differences in greater detail.
quote:
Sorry to keep asking all this stuff, but I want to prepare this correctly so I get a good, accurate demo the first time. Knowing myself, I'm likely to give the demo one shot and make a decision at that point whether to proceed into linux or wait a couple years.
As I mentioned. I think I would still suggest you download the DemoLinux CD and boot it up. You will get a good feeling for Linux with this Demo. As long as you understand that if you install a full version of a full Distribution (like RedHat, Mandrake, SuSe, Debian, etc) that things will be much faster, the software will be newer and improved, and you won't be limited by the "read only" CD filesystem. That is you will be able to make changes and have the saved, install software, upgrade things as needed, etc.
And since RedHat is very close to releasing version 8.0 and Mandrake is very close to releasing version 9.0 of their distributions I might even suggest waiting until they come out and use one of them if you decide to go to a full fledged install. RedHat has indicated that they are going to put much more effort into being a better desktop/workstation distribution (they've always been known as a more server oriented distribution). Mandrake has been known as a more desktop oriented distribution although I still prefer RedHat for a desktop.
And if you are wondering what makes something a better "desktop" distribution I would say that one of the major factors is "ease of use for a new user".
Good luck!
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unlike red hat and mandrake, debian is a charity however...
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Well, there is no "company" behind Debian like there are the other two, however you can download the other two from their respective web sites for free just like you can Debian so... Debian would be the choice if you just want to stay completely away from corporate smell.
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Well folks I thought I'd let you know I am going to start with Open Office for Windows. If that works, then I'll try Mozilla for Windows. If that works, I'll look for something to replace Outlook.
I guess first the applications, then the OS.
(Added later)
At least this is what I want to do, but I've now tried 5 or 6 download sites, both HTTP and FTP, and none of them work. Hmm.
[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: willysnout ]
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That sounds like a very good plan Willie. I am sure you will find OpenOffice for Windows very pleasing.
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I went to every Open Office download site and every mirror site and I couldn't download from any of them. I also went to the Demo Linux site you recommended and it was going to take 20 hours to download over my cable modem. Screw that.
I did find a place to order both of these on CD for a total of $4.98, which I sure can't argue with. God, I can feel myself getting sucked into this.
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Good, you can't beat the CD prices. I guess I have been lucky and have always been able to download OpenOffice without a problem. You are getting the OpenOffice CD as well right?
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hey ya! re: getting mozilla, openoffice and so on for windows, willysnout, if and when you do install linux, you will need new binaries for each of those programs (this means downloading the programs again or recompiling them for your new system. While the latter is easy, you may prefer the former as a more familiar method). In effect, this means downloading the stuff twice. (it's worth it, i did it!)
and i do recommend you get those CDs mailorder. Sometimes that's just a bit better than downloading the stuff, as you know that you are getting decent copies and so on, also, as you say, they're a bit cheaper than Microsoft's equivalent products!
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
hey ya! re: getting mozilla, openoffice and so on for windows, willysnout, if and when you do install linux, you will need new binaries for each of those programs (this means downloading the programs again or recompiling them for your new system. While the latter is easy, you may prefer the former as a more familiar method). In effect, this means downloading the stuff twice. (it's worth it, i did it!)
and i do recommend you get those CDs mailorder. Sometimes that's just a bit better than downloading the stuff, as you know that you are getting decent copies and so on, also, as you say, they're a bit cheaper than Microsoft's equivalent products!
Maybe I'll have to send away for the CDs, given that none of the download sites really work. Even so, it's cheap enough that this option is workable.
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ok, openoffice plug coming up.
i use it on my laptop at school. it works great at reading and writing word files. and it works good at translating the openoffice files into word files. and it also works for things like prenetations, now for a mozilla plug, if you goto the edit > preferences then click on the advanced dialog, then click on "scripts and windows" and uncheck allow websites to open unrequested windows. poof, no more annoying pop up adds. well, i hope you do enjoy trying openoffice and mozilla.
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quote:
I have been called a genious just for replacing a Modem
my friend though i was a genious when i cleared his history so it didn't appear that he was looking at porn then i transfered all his porn into a hidden folder i cleverly named C:/porn lol
don't you just love how you can't see hidden folders? (http://smile.gif)
[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Chooco ]
[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Chooco ]