Stop Microsoft
All Things Microsoft => Microsoft as a Company => Topic started by: Macman on 28 March 2002, 13:50
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WINDOWS XP MAY HAVE TO BE PULLED BACK :D (From Infotech)WASHINGTON: Microsoft contends that it will be forced to pull Windows XP off the market and be unable to develop new systems if anti-trust sanctions sought by state prosecutors are granted. In court documents released on Monday, Microsoft denied that the proposal was part of a "doomsday defence," but said the remedy sought by the states are a "calculated effort by Microsoft's competitors to inflict maximum commercial injury on the company, without regard to the well-being of the industry or consumers." The states that rejected last year's anti-trust settlement accepted by the US Justice Department are to begin their case next week in US District Court here. They are seeking tougher penalties, including a stripped-down version of Windows, which would eliminate Microsoft's advantage of incorporating various items of software, such as Internet browsers and media players, in the operating system. Microsoft said this remedy "would result in grievous harm not only to Microsoft, but also to the entire PC industry and to the tens of millions of consumers around the world that use Microsoft products." The company said the proposal "not only would prevent Microsoft from developing and releasing new versions of Windows, thus causing innovation in the leading PC platform to come to a halt, but would also cause the withdrawal from the market of Windows XP and Windows 2000". The states, in filing with the court, said they plan to present witnesses who will testify that Microsoft has been using its market power to force computer makers to favour its products over those of rivals. Among the witnesses will be Anthony Fama of Gateway, who will argue that a tougher penalty is needed "to prevent Microsoft from continuing to favour personal computer manufacturers who support Microsoft's products, to the disadvantage of personal computer manufacturers who do not". Microsoft said it "expects" to call its founder and chairman Bill Gates to the witness stand, although it may modify its witness list depending on the circumstances. If he appears, it would be Gates' first testimony in the case since a videotaped deposition played in court in 1998 that infuriated the judge because of his evasive answers.
As Nelson from the Simpsons would say, "HA HA!"
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quote:
The company said the proposal "not only would prevent Microsoft from developing and releasing new versions of Windows, thus causing innovation in the leading PC platform to come to a halt,
this is very good news indeed!
but i don't think they will really stop shipping windows. M$ are just bluffing to try and maneuvre people exactly where they want them, it would be nice though if they did stop making windows.
The funny thing about this post is that Microsoft have the nerve to claim that if new versions of windows stop being released, PC innovation will come to a halt!
<gobsmacked>
I reckon that if windows stops being sold, that will be the single most important boost to PC innovation since the term was coined in the late seventies/early eighties! i reckon it would be great. think of all the public spending that would immediately go towards Apple, Sun and other UNIX developers and distributers!
Onward the revolution i say....
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right on
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They should take Windows Xp off the shelves simply due to the fact that it causes severe brain hemorrhages. But their reasons are good, too.
"end of PC innovation" - indeed! horseshit, I say! I hope no one believes their whiny lies.
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Gnome, I can't help but notice your complete change of heart from the first message you posted here. All I can say is I am very proud of you!
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It seems that they never learn. We've heard this before. Isn't that basically what Ballmer said when he threw that temper tantrum in court a couple of weeks ago? At that time, it seemed to be nothing more than an empty threat. Now, I'm not so sure. Macro$uck seems to have grown so arrogant lately that they may actually believe their own bullshit. They may really believe that pulling Win XP from the market will cause the sum total of computing to come to a screeching halt. Fine by me. This would give *NIX such a tremendous boost, that M$ would never recover once it began to dawn on them that the universe doesn't revolve around Redmond, and never did.
Dare we hope?(!)
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HAHAHAH! While looking for stuff about M$'s crusade against open source and the GPL, look at this bucket 'o bull dropings I found on their very own site! If this doesn't smell like FUD what does. Look at the totaly cheep conspicuous use of BOLD and large text:
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/embedded/xp/evaluation/compare/notlinux.asp (http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/embedded/xp/evaluation/compare/notlinux.asp)
This is why I say: DOWN WITH XP AND M$!!!!
WOW! I started finding more M$ Linux stuff besides this embeded systems crap:
http://www.microsoft.com/sbserver/evaluation/compare/linux.asp (http://www.microsoft.com/sbserver/evaluation/compare/linux.asp)
In each one they site the GPL as a fault in Linux.
Very interesting.
[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: psyjax ]
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Hey,
quote:
Originally posted by psyjax:
HAHAHAH! While looking for stuff about M$'s crusade against open source and the GPL, look at this bucket 'o bull dropings I found on their very own site! If this doesn't smell like FUD what does. Look at the totaly cheep conspicuous use of BOLD and large text:
http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/embedded/xp/evaluation/compare/notlinux.asp (http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/embedded/xp/evaluation/compare/notlinux.asp)
This is why I say: DOWN WITH XP AND M$!!!!
WOW! I started finding more M$ Linux stuff besides this embeded systems crap:
http://www.microsoft.com/sbserver/evaluation/compare/linux.asp (http://www.microsoft.com/sbserver/evaluation/compare/linux.asp)
In each one they site the GPL as a fault in Linux.
Very interesting.
[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: psyjax ]
Well after reading that I am going to get up at 5am and go wait outside walmart until it opens so I can run in a buy a bunch of copies of XP.
NOT!!!
HEHEH
Seriously this sounds like just more propaganda.
Do anything, say anything to stay on top. Apparently that is the way it works.
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quote:
HAHAHAH! While looking for stuff about M$'s crusade against open source and the GPL, look at this bucket 'o bull dropings I found on their very own site! If this doesn't smell like FUD what does. Look at the totaly cheep conspicuous use of BOLD and large text:
I'll grant Macro$uck one point: embedded systems isn't one of Linux's stronger points. However, they are so obsessed with Linux that they could be setting themselves up for a real fall. The major strength of the QNX op-sys is embedded systems. QNX could easily fly in right under M$'s radar and blind-side them.
Wouldn't that be poetic justice? :D
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[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: jtpenrod ]
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BIGGEST LOAD OF FUCKING SHIT I'VE EVER SEEN
For example:
* The MP3 basic decoder costs about $0.50 per-unit. If an OEM wants the enhanced functionality of MP3 Pro, it will pay an additional $2.50 per-unit royalty. For MP3 Pro encode and decode, costs can run an incremental $7.50 per-unit.
WHat fucking drug was the writer taking.
I didnt pay anything XMMS or MPEG123
I think someones been into the crack
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The MP3 ENcoders are not supposed to be free. Fraunhofer<sp> owns the patents and charges royalties. The players are free though.
Ogg Vorbis is a dang fine audio codec, IMO, and I looking forward to Ogg Tarkin. (http://smile.gif)
I seriously doubt WinXP will be pulled off the shelves. Its not worth the headache to government, MS, or the customers.
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It is my understanding that when you used the XP Mediaplayer to watch a DVD disc, XP sends a report back to Microsoft to tell it which movie or movies you may have watched.
Is this just an XP abomination or have other versions monitored our viewing habits?
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quote:
Originally posted by silverking:
It is my understanding that when you used the XP Mediaplayer to watch a DVD disc, XP sends a report back to Microsoft to tell it which movie or movies you may have watched.
Is this just an XP abomination or have other versions monitored our viewing habits?
no, its true, its true, windows sends back what you watched and what music you play.
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No it's NOT true that WMP sends info back to MS about what you watch/play. I have ZA on and WMP NEVER connects to the internet unless I watch a streaming video.
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either you have ZA set up wrong or you let WMP connect or you have it permanently blocked by ZA or you are lying.
I just fucking (6 hrs ago) listened to "Home for a Rest" by Great big Sea after dling it from WinMX and after i was finished listening ZA poppedup and said
quote:
Windows media player (WMPLAYER.EXE) wants to access DNS 192.***.***.*** (its my network DHCP server, which uses DNS forwarding.) Do you wish to grant this program access?
then in the log it shows right now:
quote:
PE,2002/03/31,18:08:29 -5:00 GMT,WMPLAYER.EXE,192.168.0.1:80,N/A
:cool:
check out this:
http://www.computerbytesman.com/privacy/wmp8dvd.htm (http://www.computerbytesman.com/privacy/wmp8dvd.htm)
[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Druaga ]
[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Master of Reality ]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ctrl Alt Del 123:
No it's NOT true that WMP sends info back to MS about what you watch/play. I have ZA on and WMP NEVER connects to the internet unless I watch a streaming video.
Try a dedicated conection. Like a T1 or DSL and check what packets are being sent out, then youll know for sure.
I have heard people on this forum test this and they report that WMP does send info. out if conected online. M$ has also admited that WMP collects data on what the user watches or listesn to. They say they are not using it for advertising or anything but they don't say they won't.
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and what the hell is winamp trying to access the internet for when i play shit?
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Wow! Druaga and I posted at nearly the same time saying nearly the same thing (http://smile.gif) .
Jinx!
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quote:
Originally posted by psyjax:
Wow! Druaga and I posted at nearly the same time saying nearly the same thing (http://smile.gif) .
Jinx!
it could be because we both live here. (i sleep behind the linux forum)
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Might sound to you like a stupid question but what guarentee is there that some brilliant open source programmer contributing to linux isnt imbedding some kind of wierd shit in his/her programs? being open source, I doubt if there is any control over that. I read that article and there are some very good points in it from a business point of view. I dont like Microsofts
business practices any more than any of you, but most companys are not interested in experimenting, they want proven systems that contribute to the bottom line. You would have to admit that the layoffs at Red Hat and others are a bit of a concern. Much as I dislike them, if I owned a large corporation, I would have to go with microsoft.
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alright, a valid question, from a day to day point of view, and the answer is as follows.
Open source means that you can read through all the code yrself.
If you can understand the code, then you can see exactly what the software is programmed to do.
M$ software is usually (always?) NOT open source, so you can't tell what it does. All GPL software IS open source, so you CAN see what it does.
"Oh no!" i can hear the world screaming," I can't understand all this meaningless computer geek gibberish! i am going to fall prey to the unscrupulous code writers of the world!"
well i say ploppypoos to that, because enough people use linux that do understand every character of code, that if some open source thing turned up with malicious code in it, everybody would know about it very soon.
While some people might not spread it around, there are enough loudmouthed altruists in the linux community that it's unrealistic that any GPL software could be spyware without you knowing about it.
Not all linux software is GPL, and some software even admits/advertises that it's spyware. (i'm thinking of KazAa for windows here actually but there's bound to be similar licences for some unix programs) and you have to allow it to be if you want to use it.
That's it in a nutshell. pretty good compared to the alternative where you have to first believe that a company who will go unnamed have no spyware in their OS or programs, then later when they admit they were LYING (yes this has happened before) you have to trust the liars when they say that they won't use the information they have already gathered and are already gathering about you for illicit purposes or commercial gain.
Would their word stand up in a court of law? (of course it would, haven't you heard of backhanders?)
I know that some people who post here don't like to view M$ pages so i'm going to quote some of the contents of the pages that are linked to above, so you don't have to go to M$ to read them: quote:
How Does Linux Compare? Competitive Comparisons
Read about the strengths of Small Business Server compared with this competitor.
Thousands of Compatible Applications
Because Small Business Server 2000 includes the mature, multipurpose Microsoft Windows
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Perhaps this is a simplistic way of looking at it but I believe Microsoft will fall, but it will be of their own doing. Nothing directly related to the open source community as it exists now.
Probably, many of you were not around when Ford, General Motors dominated the Auto industry. When the first Datsuns, toyotas and volkswagons first went on the market in North America, they were anything but a great success. What did the Japanese do? They did everything Ford and GM did only in many instances, better and cheaper. They didnt attempt to destroy Ford or GM, they simply tried (and in some ways succeeded) to beat them at their own game..Throughout the history of the free world, any corporation that attempted total domination has eventually collapsed for too many reasons to even begin to list here.
I think its enough to say...give it time. Linux is not going to be a Microsoft replacement, nor should it be. Its a totally different concept. I would suspect that a replacement will end up being another closed source system, simply because of the control factor. You do have to admit, control is not a concept that most that are involved with open source want or like.
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quote:
Probably, many of you were not around when Ford, General Motors dominated the Auto industry. When the first Datsuns, toyotas and volkswagons first went on the market in North America, they were anything but a great success
The comparison between GM and M$ is more apropos than that. GM's downfall was due to their arrogance. If that brand-new Chevy turned out to be a lemon, getting any satisfaction from your friendly GM dealership was next to impossible. What did they care? If you didn't like it, you could just take the bus or walk, that was the attitude (http://tongue.gif) They did nothing to ensure quality, the mechanics were lousey, the dealers uncooperative. They ended up driving people to Toyota, Datsun, etc. one customer at a time.
M$ is doing the same thing with WPA, treating the valued customer like a potential criminal. The product is shoddy and getting worse. After all, XP was suppose to be the most secure Windows ever, and yet it has as many holes and exploits as any previous iteration. Now they have this "Trustworthy Computing" initiative - Mr. Goodwrench for the new milennium. :D (I really like that: trustworthy computing from an untrustworthy company) More form devoid of substance. M$ is following GM down the same road to self-destruction. :D
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[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: jtpenrod ]
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quote:
Originally posted by average user:
Perhaps this is a simplistic way of looking at it but I believe Microsoft will fall, but it will be of their own doing. Nothing directly related to the open source community as it exists now.
Probably, many of you were not around when Ford, General Motors dominated the Auto industry. When the first Datsuns, toyotas and volkswagons first went on the market in North America, they were anything but a great success. What did the Japanese do? They did everything Ford and GM did only in many instances, better and cheaper. They didnt attempt to destroy Ford or GM, they simply tried (and in some ways succeeded) to beat them at their own game..Throughout the history of the free world, any corporation that attempted total domination has eventually collapsed for too many reasons to even begin to list here.
I think its enough to say...give it time. Linux is not going to be a Microsoft replacement, nor should it be. Its a totally different concept. I would suspect that a replacement will end up being another closed source system, simply because of the control factor. You do have to admit, control is not a concept that most that are involved with open source want or like.
Averageuser and jptenrod, you have both hit the nail right on the thumb.
This is exactly what will happen. M$ will alienate evrybody until one day they will wake up and realise they have no friends. Actually they may have a messy period of kicking and screaming before that.
there will probably be a brief scuffle between Sun microsystems and Apple computer, with Apple taking the apparent backseat quite quickly (actually sun and apple will just carve the industry in two to avoid stepping on each other's toes) and before you know it, M$ is a third rate player with a fourth rate OS.
Linux doesn't figure in this story. Why?
because it is a hobbyists' OS. hobbyists use it for their hobbies. The fact is some of them choose not to get a commercial OS, but they may have chosen not to do that even if they didn't have linux as a hobby.
In real life linux is getting used more and more in businesses, homes and for servers, and this will have its commercial effect, but linux is not a company, there's not (really) any controlling interest, and it can't go out of business, because it was never in business to start with. linux does not compete with any other OS. in a very real sense the people who choose linux over any other commercial product are themselves the instruments of change. linux itself is just a piece of software for hobbyists.
It's a very quiet revolution, but yr right, it will happen inexorably in our lifetimes.
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quote:
Originally posted by Bateleur:
The MP3 ENcoders are not supposed to be free. Fraunhofer owns the patents and charges royalties. The players are free though.
Ogg Vorbis is a dang fine audio codec, IMO, and I looking forward to Ogg Tarkin. (http://smile.gif)
I seriously doubt WinXP will be pulled off the shelves. Its not worth the headache to government, MS, or the customers.
Here's my favourite (http://www.cdex.n3.net/) MP3 encoder's website (http://cdexos.sourceforge.net/)
This is software for windows which includes at least one mp3 encoder and i think a windows media audio encoder and an ogg vorbis one too. It supports a whole bunch more so long as you can get the encoders, you can easily use them as plugins. There are no limits on any of the functionality of any of the encoders.
I have it set up in windows with both bladeenc and lame.
This program and any additional encoders i have installed with it were all free to download and i saw no mention that i would have to pay for a licence.
This is the page (http://sourceforge.net/projects/grip/) for the equivalent (http://software.linux.com/projects/gripgcd/)program in linux. (http://freshmeat.net/projects/grip/?topic_id=117%2C118)
This is a frontend for cdparanoia and whatever encoders you may have downloaded.
Unlike the one above, this one requires you to get cdparanoia (the ripper) and any encoders yourself. I got bladeenc and will soon be looking for lame and gogo.
because it's cdparanoia, this program is a lot more thorough and stable than its windows counterpart, but slower, which to me is an acceptable trade.
My point is that so far i have had no trouble getting any of these programs and/or libraries/plugins for free. So far as i know i have not had to break any laws at all yet, so them Frauenhoffers must be really lax about protecting their patents! either that or they are too preoccupied with something else to care! who knows?...
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
Linux doesn't figure in this story. Why?
because it is a hobbyists' OS. hobbyists use it for their hobbies. The fact is some of them choose not to get a commercial OS, but they may have chosen not to do that even if they didn't have linux as a hobby.
In real life linux is getting used more and more in businesses, homes and for servers, and this will have its commercial effect, but linux is not a company, there's not (really) any controlling interest, and it can't go out of business, because it was never in business to start with. linux does not compete with any other OS. in a very real sense the people who choose linux over any other commercial product are themselves the instruments of change. linux itself is just a piece of software for hobbyists.
I don't really agree with this. Apple would probably pick up the bulk of the desktop but Linux would replace Windows on servers before Sun does. Sun will keep the servers it already has but on the Lower end servers that Windows runs on Linux would easily replace it. I am have no discrimination when it comes to replacing an OS with Linux. I replace just as many Sun servers as I do Windows servers. Two more down just today.
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hooray! onward the revolution!
i have had limited experience with sun's stuff (a few months with a company database running on SunOS5) but it looks like their politics may echo M$ on a more sedate sensible level.
Actually i reckon that linux will be very widespread, but because it's not a company, it'll never have a market share, it'll just eliminate the market share of real companies.
As far as servers are concerned, there is no reason that i can see why linux would not always be the best choice of OS. but, once the server revolution is firmly in place (as it is) linux will need to make an effort to become a workstation OS quick before it gets pigeonholed as a server only thing. i reckon we might see a backlash of people who used linux when it was unstable (like now for example!) as a desktop OS and compared it with windows (remember that these people have been using windows for a while and can sidestep many of its 'issues' without even knowing they're doing it) unfavourably.
If too many people get the idea that linux is only for top end users (which to an extent it is, desktopwise), and Apple computer make an OS that requires new and expensive hardware to run, the way is open for Sun MicroSystems to ruch in there and whip the market away. They haven't had the publicity so far that linux has had, but they are a company, and this means that if they get their act together, they could probably outmaneuvre linux in the publicity arena.
I don't know, we'll see, but in 10 years time, maybe i'll bump into you on the fucksunOS.com forums!!
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>Thousands of Compatible Applications
Mostly Microsoft made and BloatWare!
Thousands smaller are freely available on the Net for almost every flavour of *nix and doing the same job with a smaller footprint, 5 times faster and on inferior hardware.
>Better Integration and Ease of Use
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About WMP, by default (and default = crap) WMP WILL CONNECT TO THE NET, go Tools > Options and turn off anything that looks like WMP will connect to the internet.
I'll repeat myself, WMP doesn't connect to the internet, ZA is set to Max security and has WMP set to ASK if it is allowed to connect to the net, and it doesn't.
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Wow, reading your comments I realized something, if M$ goes under, Linux will explode (in a good way).
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Vultures suddenly springs to mind. M
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quote:
Originally posted by Calum:
If too many people get the idea that linux is only for top end users (which to an extent it is, desktopwise), and Apple computer make an OS that requires new and expensive hardware to run, the way is open for Sun MicroSystems to ruch in there and whip the market away. They haven't had the publicity so far that linux has had, but they are a company, and this means that if they get their act together, they could probably outmaneuvre linux in the publicity arena.
I don't know, we'll see, but in 10 years time, maybe i'll bump into you on the fucksunOS.com forums!!
I don't see Solaris/SunOS *ever* becoming a popular desktop OS for several reasons. One, it sucks as a desktop OS and isn't that great as a server OS, however it's what runs the high end Sparc servers. And Sun hardware is not cheap by PC or Mac standards. Hell, they just quit the x86 version of Solaris. Linux would take way more desktop share than Solaris. However, Sun is about to put out it's own Linux distro so who knows? Now Apple is a very reasonably priced desktop platform and already has popular user apps (even Solaris doesn't have that). Apple would certainly win big if MS were to die today. They would probably almost immidiately pick up most of the MS desktop share. And their hardware prices would likely come down as there will be far more demand (as long as they can keep the supply up). Either they current PC manufacturers would have to be converted to producing Macs or they go out of business or put full effort into Linux. On the other hand Apple could raise their hardware prices because of lack of competition. It certainly would be interesting. No matter how it turns out, if MS goes under I'm happy.
I think there would be a lot of out of work MS developers jumping on the Linux desktop project... Maybe we would have the Windows GUI as an option. That would not be a bad thing for people who do like the MS interface, and they would have the stability. It would be much like what Mac has done with OSX.
[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]
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Tough the predicitons are interesting, I would have a hard time seeing MS go under anytime soon. certinally within a decade or two. But unless these lawyers bust the trust, MS will remain a single company, which would mean at least 5 years till thier demise.
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20 to 30 years i reckon. if they don't do something really stupid like stopping shipping windows (snirk!)
also, VoidMain, everything you say is correct (as is your bent) but i reckon Sun Microsystems are just beginning to wake up to the multinational corporateness that made M$ so popular.
They just started charging for StarOffice, and also for Solarisi386 as you say, also now you say they will bring out their own version of linux.
I honestly think Sun will quietly note down all of M$' commercial , legal and software mistakes, and will try its best to avoid them while it treads the line between obvious arsehole and benevolent software provider. I think they want us to think (in the future) something like "well, Sun has us by the balls, but at least they aren't forcing us through hoops like M$ did!".
Anyway, i am totally conjecturing, but i think Apple's unwillingness to bring out software for the i386 architecture will let linux in as the dominant desktop OS if M$ falls out of favour...
UNLESS
a company, such as Sun for instance, decides to do some slick maneuvring and get in there first.
Linux is only so popular because it's so good, but if somebody made a good attempt at marketing, i think they would be the first to leap into any foothold that M$ vacated.
Well, Sun don't have a decent desktop OS, but they have some time to come up with one, now they can see what is going on.
Maybe after all this that is not what is on their mind though, as you say, they already have a niche. It's just whether they get greedy enough to want another niche that's the question...
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I personally don't understand why Sun doesn't give up Solaris altogether and put the development effort into Linux. I think they would sell more hardware. Linux already runs on most of the Sun hardware but not as well as Solaris on the high end stuff. However, since Sun built the hardware and the OS they certainly should be able to make Linux run just as well on their hardware. It should reduce the amount of internal development that is required. It would instantly give Linux more credibility and as a result gain more vendor app development/porting. I think more people would buy their hardware as a result and it could be the boost to get Linux into the desktop as well.
Sun hardware is cheaper than IBM hardware (the high end stuff, UltraSparc vs RS/6000 etc) and IBM is now running Linux on their servers. Having cheaper hardware would sell to those wanting hardware that runs Linux. Or they could give the option of Solaris or Linux, but all of thier Solaris stuff could easily be directly ported to Linux which would make Linux Sparc interchangable. Their contribution would not only help them, it would help everyone. I don't know, just thinking out loud... At any rate, if they stick with Solaris it'll never be a big desktop player (unless some drastic changes are made).