Stop Microsoft
All Things Microsoft => Microsoft as a Company => Topic started by: Kintaro on 13 June 2005, 14:23
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http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=FT&Date=20050610&ID=4884671
Unsuprising.
Microsoft have great promotional skills, bragging on their own website that they are against free speech.
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I don't think that Microsoft are alone in this case. It's not easy to turn against communist ideologies in China. I don't blame MS for this.
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This is typical of all cowards. They have no backbone at all. Someone must stand up to the freedom hating chinese government and tell them they are wrong. Or rather, a big group must do this. I don
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China is an important and large trading partner.
Because of that fact, most countries are very carefull of critisising China.
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Someone give George Bush a call ... China's government need sorting out.
Seriously though, the cencorship is sickening.
/me remembers the Google China Censorship issues.
I don't undertand Communism tbh, but I am totally against censorhip of any kind.
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Someone give Mao-the-third a call... The US government needsorting out.
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I don't think that Microsoft are alone in this case. It's not easy to turn against communist ideologies in China. I don't blame MS for this.
Firstly, then they should turn away from China. This would be the action of someone with some integrity. Secondly, you obviously have no idea what Communist Idealogies are. Communism is actually about good things like sharing and equality. China is in fact a Capitalist Dictatorship Masqeradeing As A Communism.
Someone give George Bush a call ... China's government need sorting out.
Seriously though, the cencorship is sickening.
/me remembers the Google China Censorship issues.
I don't undertand Communism tbh, but I am totally against censorhip of any kind.
Good to see you admit you don't understand Communism unlike the moron making assumptions above you. There is a major problem with your solution of giving Bush a call however. China does not have any major oil reserves.
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If you hit someone with a stick it hurts. Calling it the People's Stick doesn't soften the pain.
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Firstly, then they should turn away from China. This would be the action of someone with some integrity. Secondly, you obviously have no idea what Communist Idealogies are. Communism is actually about good things like sharing and equality. China is in fact a Capitalist Dictatorship Masqeradeing As A Communism.
Turn away from china? Are you serious? There are millions soon billions of computer users/potential users who are switching to Linux and what they at least should do if they don't wanna loose the market is to have a foot staying in the country. Chinese/US relations are not so good at the moment. With one of US biggest computer companies leaving, those relationships could get worse. And I barely see claims of integrity when there is so much money to earn in a sole country.
I say communism because in most cases it turns out to what Sovjet, North Korea and China have made it to and adopted the name as. I do well know what real communism is so don't come and lecture me. I did also not say plain "dictionary" communism but just communism as the many government, intelligence agencies say, as US presidents have said about countries who practice the dark side of it.
If you're thinking about communism from the dictionary you could as well associate linux with. Do you know what GNU and the GPL founders think about that? They would hit you pretty bad for just associating it with it as they like me associate the word communism with the dark side of it like for ex North Korea.
And please don't be a coward and call me a moron over the internet. Sorry if I hit you on the ankle. You could as well call all the millions of people who associate the word communism with what you don't want it to be associated with.
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Turn away from china? Are you serious? There are millions soon billions of computer users/potential users who are switching to Linux and what they at least should do if they don't wanna loose the market is to have a foot staying in the country. Chinese/US relations are not so good at the moment. With one of US biggest computer companies leaving, those relationships could get worse. And I barely see claims of integrity when there is so much money to earn in a sole country.
I say communism because in most cases it turns out to what Sovjet, North Korea and China have made it to and adopted the name as. I do well know what real communism is so don't come and lecture me. I did also not say plain "dictionary" communism but just communism as the many government, intelligence agencies say, as US presidents have said about countries who practice the dark side of it.
If you're thinking about communism from the dictionary you could as well associate linux with. Do you know what GNU and the GPL founders think about that? They would hit you pretty bad for just associating it with it as they like me associate the word communism with the dark side of it like for ex North Korea.
And please don't be a coward and call me a moron over the internet. Sorry if I hit you on the ankle. You could as well call all the millions of people who associate the word communism with what you don't want it to be associated with.
Someone should throw you in the Total Perspective Vortex.
LIFE IS ABOUT MORE THAN MONEY. IF YOU HAD SOME INTEGRITY YOU MIGHT REALISE THAT.
People in China are suffering, and you want to support that? Under the soul claim that it is making money. You disgust me. People should boycott China, stop buying there bullshit and stop trading with them, they cant support over a billion people on their own, they would have to change then. However change seems like a far cry when there are morons like you who think that the key drive for happiness is moving small green peices of paper around, when it is not these small green peices of paper that are unhappy. You fucking moron, don't try and patronise me.
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Razor, there are no more communist ideologies in China. When you say ideologies - you do indeed refer to the ideology, which is the dictionary-type communism, as you referred to it.
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sort-of on the same topic as this, last day after school the malicious privacy-invading admins installed some shit on the winxp computer I use at school. Surveyor session, (which is a spy-reporting program) r_server (radmin server so they can spy, rapid shut off and remote controll) , and some stupid macvee posing as an anti-virus when i already have anti-vir and zonealarm on there. I got rid of them with a broom sweep, aka security task manager, deleting some of the program folders and deleting some stuff out of the registry. I warned some of the other kids in the class but they didnt think that much of it. Well, I hate it when people take away my privacy. I am pretty computer savvy and I know what are the default xp processes running and which ones are from my programs. Don't play shit with me! (i want to say that to whoever installed that crap thankyo)
at least its good for me, cause i can shut other's computers off now that they are all running radmin listening server :P pranktime
Mr X
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Yeah I'm sick of that too, I got that when I was at school, if you went onto any incriminating websites, they would take control over your computer and log you out, fucking bastards, people just don't realise how important privacy is these days....
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When I went to highschool, 2 years ago, I caused so much trouble that they framed me later on to be banned from the network, thus fucking up my education. I promptly stopped bothering with school. This year when I was going to school, I found the IT class so backwards that I stopped it and changed to music. I eventually gave up on school and decided to try and write a novel. This of course may never work and I will probably struggle and like most writers, I will be very poor. Fortunatly I rather enjoy writing. However I really suggest just shutting the fuck up and doing your schoolwork. It really helps if you actually want to have these wonderful green pieces of paper that I have mentioned earlier.
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I wonder how long it will take my school to figure out I installed CGIProxy (http://www.jmarshall.com/tools/cgiproxy/) at my ISP's server and use that to look at sites....
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Am I the only person who disagrees here, get on with your fucking work and stop installing shit and looking at porn. This school has the right to see what you're doing as you're using it's computers, sure if you break the rules that have the right to ban you. Where I work I signed a contract saying I would obide by the rules and if I break them I could be subject to disipliery action.
You wouldn't like it if you let someone use your computer and they installed lots of warez that contained viruses on it now would you?
School and work computers are for work and nothing else.
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Am I the only person who disagrees here, get on with your fucking work and stop installing shit and looking at porn. This school has the right to see what you're doing as you're using it's computers, sure if you break the rules that have the right to ban you. Where I work I signed a contract saying I would obide by the rules and if I break them I could be subject to disipliery action.
You wouldn't like it if you let someone use your computer and they installed lots of warez that contained viruses on it now would you?
School and work computers are for work and nothing else.
I don't look at porn at school because my moniter is in plain sight for the teacher to see, and it would be a waste of time when I can play counter-strike. I don't install virus' because that would be stupid. I don't have any P2P apps or any of that sort of thing. I am responcible for the computers I use and I want nothing but the best and that's why I have tweaked mine to be the fastest and most responsive.
And in the agreement they say they can't snoop on you and they're kind of pushing it in my opinion.
Also the other kids can do whatever they want to their computers, I don't care because they can make them shit while mine is the bestly kept one. And if they screw it up that's their own problem, not mine.
Mr X
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Am I the only person who disagrees here, get on with your fucking work and stop installing shit and looking at porn. This school has the right to see what you're doing as you're using it's computers, sure if you break the rules that have the right to ban you. Where I work I signed a contract saying I would obide by the rules and if I break them I could be subject to disipliery action.
Are you high? Seriously, where do you get off equating work computers to school computers? Your job PAYS YOU not to look at porn, not to play games on the systems, and so on. School computers YOU PAY TO USE. Don't believe me? Look at your taxes some time. So you think that it's within their rights to ban you from the systems you pay to use, good on you. If you do crap that disrupts other people's usage time (porn, running game servers, etc) you deserve to be. Now I realise you live in 1984 over there in Omnibus England, but you don't see the problem with the system monitoring YOU and telling YOU that you can't look at this security site over here, or play CounterStrike over here, because it might be counterintuitive to the usage YOU PAY FOR? What if every ISP did this, would you be pissed off, or just take it like the lamb you're playing? Additionally, you completely write off the right to privacy! I don't know how you do things in England, but that's not acceptable behaviour over here. People have been sued for far, FAR less.
Accordingly, "disciplinary action" need not necessarily equate to "monitoring via inherently insecure tools that provide a valid avenue of attack."
You wouldn't like it if you let someone use your computer and they installed lots of warez that contained viruses on it now would you?
Again, you miss the point. That's not acceptable behaviour, but do you take anti-virus software as anything but supplemental to your own two eyes and behaviour-analysing ability? If you let the software take precedence, you DESERVE to have your boxen owned. Likewise so if you fail to maintain any kind of physical presence around your systems. Again, many ISPs don't let their sysops run remote admin software as a matter of policy because it presents an avenue of attack for the virii you seem to think Joe Averageuser is going to WANT to install. That a learning institute condones its usage is a breach of trust of the highest calibur.
School and work computers are for work and nothing else.
Again, you're making an equation where no viable, rational basis exists for one. Work computers are designed to be used... well, for work. School computers are designed to be used AT A PLACE OF EDUCATION. If someone learns about a security vulnerability in Internet Explorer, is that work or play? If someone subsequently spreads the warning about this glitch on their message board, is that work or play? Now, if they decide they want to play Tribes, and wind up giving a dozen people the heads-up about this glitch because of that, is that work or play (admittedly stretching the definition)? It's all subjective, and restricting educational facilities to the definition of "work" held by any one person or group of people is nothing short of facism at best, McCarthyism at worst. Red Scare anyone?
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Are you high?
Nope, I don't do drugs but from the sounds of it you sound like you're high.
Seriously, where do you get off equating work computers to school computers? Your job PAYS YOU not to look at porn, not to play games on the systems, and so on. School computers YOU PAY TO USE. Don't believe me? Look at your taxes some time. So you think that it's within their rights to ban you from the systems you pay to use, good on you.
So?
We pay to use the roads and if we don't use them for the purpose they're intended for we get punished.
If you do crap that disrupts other people's usage time (porn, running game servers, etc) you deserve to be.
Right, at least we agree on something.
Now I realise you live in 1984 over there in Omnibus England, but you don't see the problem with the system monitoring YOU and telling YOU that you can't look at this security site over here, or play CounterStrike over here, because it might be counterintuitive to the usage YOU PAY FOR?
Well we pay for education, not to sit around playing games. In my opinion all scools and coleges should make every student sign an agreement stating that they will only use the computers for educational purposes.
What if every ISP did this, would you be pissed off, or just take it like the lamb you're playing?
Hang on a second, a home you pay for your own Internet connection what you do with it is your bussiness. The school pays for their's and they can dictate how it is to be used even if you're paying for school indirectly via taxes, oh I fogot students don't pay much tax anyway and if they don't work (often they're too young to)they don't pay any.
Additionally, you completely write off the right to privacy! I don't know how you do things in England, but that's not acceptable behaviour over here. People have been sued for far, FAR less.
Now I can see your point here and it's a tricky one, on one side we need to prevent abuse but on another there's the whole privacy issue. When you're at shcool you don't have any privacy anyway (unless you're taking a shit) so why should it be any different for computer usage?
Accordingly, "disciplinary action" need not necessarily equate to "monitoring via inherently insecure tools that provide a valid avenue of attack."
You got me there, but that's not the point, of course the spying tools should be better, they need to be more secure but nothing is completely secure.
Again, you miss the point. That's not acceptable behaviour, but do you take anti-virus software as anything but supplemental to your own two eyes and behaviour-analysing ability? If you let the software take precedence, you DESERVE to have your boxen owned. Likewise so if you fail to maintain any kind of physical presence around your systems. Again, many ISPs don't let their sysops run remote admin software as a matter of policy because it presents an avenue of attack for the virii you seem to think Joe Averageuser is going to WANT to install. That a learning institute condones its usage is a breach of trust of the highest calibur.
More often than not viruses aren't installed deliberatly, they come as trojans that have infected the warez people install. The most stupid thing is, the studants shouldn't be allowed to install stuff anyway, the machines should be locked down.
Again, you're making an equation where no viable, rational basis exists for one. Work computers are designed to be used... well, for work. School computers are designed to be used AT A PLACE OF EDUCATION.
No you don't say.
If someone learns about a security vulnerability in Internet Explorer, is that work or play? If someone subsequently spreads the warning about this glitch on their message board, is that work or play? Now, if they decide they want to play Tribes, and wind up giving a dozen people the heads-up about this glitch because of that, is that work or play (admittedly stretching the definition)? It's all subjective, and restricting educational facilities to the definition of "work" held by any one person or group of people is nothing short of facism at best, McCarthyism at worst. Red Scare anyone?
For a start as you and I know they shouldn't be using Internet Explorer anyway, but if they exlpoit the bug and fucks things up for others they deserve a ban.
Every day schools loose money because of studants abusing the IT equiptment if they put adequate controls in place (and this may include spyware) then they can save money and spend it on other things like teaching.
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Flamewars, episode MMMCIX,
The school computers are also there for kids who do not have a puter/internet access at home. Don't forget those. Here in Canada, they even block email sites.
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Flamewars, episode MMMCIX,
Bring it on! :D
No seriously, I find it sad that we can't have a sensible debate without people slipping the lamest insults into their post like "Are you high?" :rolleyes: in reterospect I shouldn't have bothered responding to this comment.
The school computers are also there for kids who do not have a puter/internet access at home. Don't forget those.
Yes I agree, but the schools computers aren't supposed to be used for recreational purposes.
Here in Canada, they even block email sites.
They do where I work too, infact anything non-work related is blocked (and stupidly some work related stuff too) but we have stand alone Internet machines available just in case.
In fact it is pretty easy to make a reasonably secure system, just give everybody restricted priveliges - no problem. You don't need to install any spyware on the computers either since all the computers on the network connect to the net via the server that can log the IP adresses and it knows with users are using which computers by logging their IP address when they log on, and if people can't install things there is no way they can fuck anything up.
LOL!, once back in the day when I was at school the computers ran Windows 98 and to get round the spyware problem I made a boot disc with a batch file (autoexec.bat) that over-writ the Windows 98 start up picture (c:\windows\logo.sys) with a comical picture of a troll along with a message "Watch out (insert techers name here" has eyes everywhere!" and gave a copy of the disc to all my friends and asked them to boot each computer with the disc so the following day the teacher came in to the computer room and every computer displayed this. I was only caught beacuse a teacher asked me about this and I couldn't keep a straight face :D but it was a week from the last day so I didn't care anyway.
The silly thing is I told them how to correct the problem I told them to password the bios setup and make the first boot drive C: but they didn't listen. :rolleyes: So yes call me a hypocrite if you will but I've been on both sides of this and I've grown up a bit since then so I firmly believe that anything to prevent the computers being fucked about with is a good thing and privacy at school isn't important.
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Bleh, continuing the conversation of school computers,
I was also banned from the blooming network :@
So I just logged on as the teacher when they weren't looking, hoho.
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What is the motivating force between these arguments? What makes you think you know? This isn't like 1990 where we only have one computer for 6 kids. Everyone has there on computer and after we're done the work we play games. Heck, this whole thing is garbage. The reason why they need these rules are because there are too MANY computers for each kid, and when they are done they do something else. Maybe we should go back to 1990 where there where 1 computer for 5 kids and you got the work done and didnt fool around.
If you say that school computer's cannot be used for recreational purposes then why just not take away teacher staff rooms? THis is what im talking about don't be so arrogant. YOU are reading this and YOU play games on computers at work or school some time. Don't lie to me.
Mr X
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To be honest I don't play games at all now, may be back in 1990 when I had my sega Master System but I haven't really played any games since Quake 1 (whenever it was realeased)
What you're suggesting is very foolish, you seem to think it's fine to for the schools to allow studants to install software, even pirate software in some cases.
Have you stopped to think of the implications of what you're suggesting?
By giving studants the privileges to install games you're also allowing them to install viruses and while most students don't do it on purpose there is a strong possiblily that the games can contain viruses and this is even more often the case with warez obtained from P2P networks.
The schools should only allow you to use the software that they provide, if you really want to provide you with games then maybe you could pay them to buy them for you and they can ensure they are legit and you only use them at lunch and break time. But I don't see the point in this if you really want do play games then whay don't you bring a laptop in? That's what I used to do.
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To be honest I don't play games at all now, may be back in 1990 when I had my sega Master System but I haven't really played any games since Quake 1 (whenever it was realeased)
Wait, so you don't even play Patience or anything of that order? Maybe you get your kicks coding, my way is not everyone's, but it sounds kinda dull to me.
What you're suggesting is very foolish, you seem to think it's fine to for the schools to allow studants to install software, even pirate software in some cases.
Um, actually, who's suggesting that? Don't read implications where none exist.
Have you stopped to think of the implications of what you're suggesting?
Yeah, by correlation, teachers wouldn't be entrusted to not play games on the systems, and we'd ALL get more work done. Get real, that's not how the power structure works (though sometimes I wish it did).
By giving studants the privileges to install games you're also allowing them to install viruses and while most students don't do it on purpose there is a strong possiblily that the games can contain viruses and this is even more often the case with warez obtained from P2P networks.
Okay, fair enough. I'm not endorsing warez, and I doubt anyone else here has said as much. To that end, any campus that doesn't have P2P ports clamped down should expect to be brutally owned. They really don't need anything open but 80, and if they're feeling particularly generous, 5190.
The schools should only allow you to use the software that they provide, if you really want to provide you with games then maybe you could pay them to buy them for you and they can ensure they are legit and you only use them at lunch and break time. But I don't see the point in this if you really want do play games then whay don't you bring a laptop in? That's what I used to do.
I'm glad you can afford to do that. On the other hand, you bring up an issue that I'm sure we've thoroughly worn out by now. We DO pay them to buy them for us, and the ratio in the States is roughly five computers to every registered student. It's ludicrous that we're expected to work on those five systems 24/7. That being said, really, what's to stop someone from just booting off a LiveCD and doing what they want from VMware anyway? The only solutions I've heard you advocate so far are all software-based, and you have to admit, that's no substitute for having someone actually watching the physical systems. Now not everybody is going to try to split their attention between thirty boxen at once, fair enough. That's what the entire Teacher's Assistant / Personal Assistant concept is all about. If you can't watch the physical presence, hire someone you trust that can, either for cash or class credits. Again, we're too dependent on software solving security issues, and that's a contradiction in terms really. If something's not physically secured, no amount of encryption and monitoring is going to solve that problem.
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All it takes is one student who tried to finish a paper or had to print it, but couldn't because the machine had al kinds of spyware on it. It can happen, and it DOES happen.
And that 1:6 ratio still holds true at my school, a fairly well off High school thats only a few years old. A typical HS has about 4,000 students, to have 4,000 computers is hellishly expensive.
Lets say a student has to work on a project that is due, only he cant because all the computers are taken by people who downloaded and installed "Heavy Weapons Deluxe" on the school computer they were using, and were busy playing it. That student would be rightfully pissed off.
You need to remember that the school computers BELONG to the school, not YOU.
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This discussion has gone hootspas and I dont care about fighting an immature point in the first place. good grief.
one vote for bin
Mr X
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2 votes to not bin.
Just because a thread strayes from the original subject does NOT mean you should bin it!
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But I don't see the point in this if you really want do play games then whay don't you bring a laptop in? That's what I used to do.
i would take in my laptop but:
i am not allowed to use any school computers or bring my own laptop in because they belive i am a hacker trying to break their crappy windows network because i use linux and know wtf im talking about <_<
i really hate school!!!
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It's ludicrous that we're expected to work on those five systems 24/7. That being said, really, what's to stop someone from just booting off a LiveCD and doing what they want from VMware anyway? The only solutions I've heard you advocate so far are all software-based, and you have to admit, that's no substitute for having someone actually watching the physical systems. Now not everybody is going to try to split their attention between thirty boxen at once, fair enough. That's what the entire Teacher's Assistant / Personal Assistant concept is all about. If you can't watch the physical presence, hire someone you trust that can, either for cash or class credits. Again, we're too dependent on software solving security issues, and that's a contradiction in terms really. If something's not physically secured, no amount of encryption and monitoring is going to solve that problem.
I don't understand why people are talking about students screwing up a computer, Internet Explorer does that to the computer by default, so you can't totally blame the students for computers being destroyed.
That's why when I was in school I tried to install Firefox, but it wouldn't allow me to (Software Policy, it wouldn't allow you to install pretty much anything) :thumbdwn:
I also was thinking of trying to bring in Knoppix, but this idea never came to be a reality :nothappy:
What about the students out there (like me) who actually try and make the system more secure, but are locked out by a Software Policy that doesn't allow you to install any secure software... :fu:
What I REALLY don't understand is why I was banned from the school computer network, despite my efforts to try and make the system more secure, I was actually trying to help the school, but they locked me out.... (this really isn't fair) :thumbdwn:
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This isn't like 1990 where we only have one computer for 6 kids. Everyone has there on computer and after we're done the work we play games. (...) there are too MANY computers for each kid, and when they are done they do something else.
the ratio in the States is roughly five computers to every registered student.
Guys, don't know where you are living, but my school here in Canada the school has some 400 students in secondaire, and about say 50-100 computers all together, and my Czech (private) school of 160 students only has 9, although the students usually prefer to go home and use their own. Were you referring to home computers or school computers (when saying 5 comps per kid, everyone has their own) - and what sort of a school is that?
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Wait, so you don't even play Patience or anything of that order?
No I don't play any games at all.
Maybe you get your kicks coding,
I used to, but I got bored of it.
Yeah, by correlation, teachers wouldn't be entrusted to not play games on the systems, and we'd ALL get more work done. Get real, that's not how the power structure works (though sometimes I wish it did).
Well you always get the odd one or two bent teachers.
Okay, fair enough. I'm not endorsing warez, and I doubt anyone else here has said as much. To that end, any campus that doesn't have P2P ports clamped down should expect to be brutally owned. They really don't need anything open but 80, and if they're feeling particularly generous, 5190.
I agree.
I'm glad you can afford to do that. On the other hand, you bring up an issue that I'm sure we've thoroughly worn out by now. We DO pay them to buy them for us,
No you pay them for education not games!
and the ratio in the States is roughly five computers to every registered student.
bullshit.
It's ludicrous that we're expected to work on those five systems 24/7.
I doubt they even run them 24/7.
That being said, really, what's to stop someone from just booting off a LiveCD and doing what they want from VMware anyway?[/quot]
Easy to stop I've mentioned this before, just change the boot sequance to the hard disc first and password protect the bios.
The only solutions I've heard you advocate so far are all software-based, and you have to admit, that's no substitute for having someone actually watching the physical systems.
We weren't even allowed to use the computers without supervision.
Now not everybody is going to try to split their attention between thirty boxen at once, fair enough. That's what the entire Teacher's Assistant / Personal Assistant concept is all about. If you can't watch the physical presence, hire someone you trust that can, either for cash or class credits. Again, we're too dependent on software solving security issues, and that's a contradiction in terms really. If something's not physically secured, no amount of encryption and monitoring is going to solve that problem.
Fair point.
All it takes is one student who tried to finish a paper or had to print it, but couldn't because the machine had al kinds of spyware on it. It can happen, and it DOES happen.
And that 1:6 ratio still holds true at my school, a fairly well off High school thats only a few years old. A typical HS has about 4,000 students, to have 4,000 computers is hellishly expensive.
Lets say a student has to work on a project that is due, only he cant because all the computers are taken by people who downloaded and installed "Heavy Weapons Deluxe" on the school computer they were using, and were busy playing it. That student would be rightfully pissed off.
You need to remember that the school computers BELONG to the school, not YOU.
I agree with you 100%.
I don't understand why people are talking about students screwing up a computer, Internet Explorer does that to the computer by default, so you can't totally blame the students for computers being destroyed.
I agree, Internet Explore is the worst part of Windows.
That's why when I was in school I tried to install Firefox, but it wouldn't allow me to (Software Policy, it wouldn't allow you to install pretty much anything) :thumbdwn:
While I can see your frustration I'm affraid this is the way it should be, sorry I meant not allowing people to install software, I think they should use Firefox and block Internet Explorer.
I also was thinking of trying to bring in Knoppix, but this idea never came to be a reality :nothappy:
What about the students out there (like me) who actually try and make the system more secure, but are locked out by a Software Policy that doesn't allow you to install any secure software... :fu:
I understand again, but it really isn't your job and it's just tough shit if the IT admins are crap.
What I REALLY don't understand is why I was banned from the school computer network, despite my efforts to try and make the system more secure, I was actually trying to help the school, but they locked me out.... (this really isn't fair) :thumbdwn:
Because you broke the rules - plain and simple.
Try going anout this a different way, speek to the administrators about the security issues with their network, write them a report, be polite and don't slag them off, if you make a good impression they might even offer you a job when you leave school.
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:crys:
What happened to my flamewar, here I was flameing away on a totally different subject when BAM, a flooding explosion of flames rushes in through the side of the thread with a dozen people bitching about .
I think that they should Free Saddam Hussain, George Bush should be made King, and the Prince Harry should be given control over the entire United Kingdom. And Open Source Should Be Banned!
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Remeber Gpl Is Communism
BAN COMMUNISM TODAY!!!111oneoneone.
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Again, you're making an equation where no viable, rational basis exists for one. Work computers are designed to be used... well, for work. School computers are designed to be used AT A PLACE OF EDUCATION. If someone learns about a security vulnerability in Internet Explorer, is that work or play? If someone subsequently spreads the warning about this glitch on their message board, is that work or play? Now, if they decide they want to play Tribes, and wind up giving a dozen people the heads-up about this glitch because of that, is that work or play (admittedly stretching the definition)?
I'm a network/systems admin at a school, and students are NOT allowed carte blanche access to the computers. They are allowed to use them for educational purposes, and "educational purposes" is defined by the school's administation. The students have no say in the matter.
I am in charge of around eight computers labs. The computers run Win2k/WinXP and students log on as "guest" accounts. They basicially have the right to run the existing programs on the computer, print (10c a page at some locations) and save their stuff on removable media. When they log off or reboot their profiles are dumped and the next time they log in the same 'default profile' is loaded for them.
If you give students more access than that they will (intentionally or not) screw the computers up, which leads to extra work. That's something our IT staff cannot afford since we have four people (3.5 if you properly factor in the incompitent one) for 1100 workstations and 25 servers.
The students are in fact more restricted than the staff members. The staff members are still not allowed admin access to their machines, but they do not log on as guests.
It's all subjective, and restricting educational facilities to the definition of "work" held by any one person or group of people is nothing short of facism at best, McCarthyism at worst. Red Scare anyone?
I guess we're a fascist country because that's how it works in just about every school in the U.S. The school owns the computers and the school decides what the computers are to be used for. The students don't own the computers any more than they own the buildings they are housed in. I've converesed with quite a few IT people from other schools in California and other states and not once have I heard of the school allowing the students to...
a) play games ojn school computers
b) have any kind of admin access to school computers
c) install software on school computers
There are exceptions to the rule (Speciafic computer related classes), but these are only exceptions.
Sure they might use school computers for chatting or message board posting, but we have th right to kick them off of the computer if another student needs to do something more school related, like type a paper.
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woah. I replied to Oritheius without reading the rest of the thread.
*bad toadlife!*
Okay, I've seen a lot of stuff in here that are interesting but I'm too lazy to properly quote everyone. You guys will jsut have to pick your quotes out yourselves.
"This isn't like 1990 where we only have one computer for 6 kids."
"We DO pay them to buy them for us, and the ratio in the States is roughly five computers to every registered student."
??? Wow. Those ratios are foriegn to anything I've ever seen.
In 1992 when I was a freshman in highschool, there was approximately 1 computer for every 50 students. In 1996 when I was a senior, the ratio had not changed.
Today at the school I work for, there is about 1 computer for every 11 students.
"That being said, really, what's to stop someone from just booting off a LiveCD and doing what they want from VMware anyway?"
In the labs I run, the computers are set to boot from the harddrive and network only. To change, it you need to BIOS password. To boot from the network, you also need a password, so booting from the hard drive is pretty much the only option.
"The only solutions I've heard you advocate so far are all software-based, and you have to admit, that's no substitute for having someone actually watching the physical systems."
California state law (education code) requires a fully credentialled teacher to be present in computers labs while students are using them. Sometimes this rule is bent, but there is *always* someone there watching. Aside from that, the software/hareware (permission/BIOS) restrictions I have in place are fairly effective to begin with. The people there to supervise prevent student from opening up the cases and reseting the bios password via a jumper.
"All it takes is one student who tried to finish a paper or had to print it, but couldn't because the machine had al kinds of spyware on it. It can happen, and it DOES happen."
If the IT people are incompetent. In my labs, the students can't mess the computers up because they are locked down properly via Windows (yes Windows) permissions. I have labs computers running Win2k that I havn't touched in three years. They look/act/work exactly the same as they did the day I cloned them due to the fact that I set them up properly in the first place.
"I don't understand why people are talking about students screwing up a computer, Internet Explorer does that to the computer by default, so you can't totally blame the students for computers being destroyed."
Correct, you can't blame the students. You can blame the IT staff that set the computers up. When logged on as a restricted account in Windows, spyware installs via IE do not work.
"i am not allowed to use any school computers or bring my own laptop in because they belive i am a hacker trying to break their crappy windows network because i use linux and know wtf im talking about <_<"
I used to have a really cool student worker who was from Pakistan. He was really bright and helped us out a lot. He would tell about students who said they were going to hack the school's web server, which by the way runs Windown/IIS. Never happened.
Oh, and yes Kintaro, The spirit of GPL is similar to the spirit of communism.
A challege for you Kintaro, name a coutry which has implimetned communism without having to retort to fasism/dictatorship to maintain it.
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I was naming a hypothetical situation. I'm on my schools IT staff, the student accounds are locked down to a level below that of the windows guest account. Can't install, see the C: drive, right-click, see anything in the programs section of the start menu. The students can only access the program groups that ZenWorks puts in.
Here is a question for you. Do you NEED to allow students to access PopCap games during a tutorial period that is DESIGNATED for students to be doing school work? Didn't think so.
EDIT: I should add that we also lock the BIOS and boot in the order of:
PXE
Hard Drive
CD-ROM
Floppy
anything goes wrong, and we mark the machine to be re-imaged in ConsoleOne, and send somebody to re-boot it, and makesure that Zen re-images it.
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Here is a question for you. Do you NEED to allow students to access PopCap games during a tutorial period that is DESIGNATED for students to be doing school work? Didn't think so.
Is that directed at me? :confused:
EDIT: I should add that we also lock the BIOS and boot in the order of:
PXE
Hard Drive
CD-ROM
Floppy
anything goes wrong, and we mark the machine to be re-imaged in ConsoleOne, and send somebody to re-boot it, and makesure that Zen re-images it.
Sounds kinda like the setup we have, sans the fancy software. We lack the budget to buy much management software, so we have to make *full* use of built in Windows security structure. We do have Norton Ghost 7.5 which has numerous bugs and is not supported by Symantec any more.
[OFFTOPIC]
Sopeaking of Symantec..they make Microsoft look like fucking saints when it comes to supporting older versions. We bought Ghost 7.5 and paid a helfty chunk of change for it, and one year later they comp[letely dropped support for it even though it still contained some really bad bugs. When you search for the bugs in their knowledge base it says "This issue is resolved in version 8.0 of Ghost" Please contact your resller to purchase an updated version.
There should a fucksymantec.com or symansuck.com site.
[/OFFTOPIC]
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That question was not directed at you. We seem to be on the same page here.
And ZenWorks is way the fuck better than Ghost, hence why my school switched to ZenWorks Imaging from Ghost.
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And ZenWorks is way the fuck better than Ghost, hence why my school switched to ZenWorks Imaging from Ghost.
Yeah, when we finally get some money to buy new management software we will NOT be buying anything from Symantec. I'll be sure and keep zenworks in mind as something we evaluate.
The bug in Ghost 7.5 that we are stuck with is having the ghost console joining machines to our domain after being cloned. Out of a lab of 25 computers, an average five will mysteriously fail to join the domain after being cloned. There is no ryme or reason to it. This means we have to be there when the computers are cloned, and manually join the machines that failed. It's a *big* time waster.
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The only Caveat with Zen, is that the server end runs on Novell NetWare. So you'd be looking at a big-ass overhaul of your LAN, one that gives you more control.
We used to use Ghost at my school, I remember it, and then I wake up screaming.
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The only Caveat with Zen, is that the server end runs on Novell NetWare. So you'd be looking at a big-ass overhaul of your LAN, one that gives you more control.
We used to use Ghost at my school, I remember it, and then I wake up screaming.
haha. Scratch that. No Novell going on here. :D
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I'm not too sure about Novell giving you more control, but...
I've had a really good Novell Directory vs. Microsoft AD argument with a Novell person a couple of years back. We went back and forth for quite awhile and eventually came to the conclusion that both of us were "right".
We were comparing Microsoft / Novell whitepapers and marketing material and came to the conclusion that both systems had extremely similar capabilities, in respect to their claims about the other, both Novell and Microsoft were full of shit.
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From experience, AD is an unlogical system that has up to three different directory and file rights, and a very confusing connectivity scheme.
NetWare on the other hand, was a fresh breath of air. You've got NetWare rights, the NTFS rights are simply ignored, install the Novell Client on a client computer and you're done, and it's got good LDAP support.
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Oh, and yes Kintaro, The spirit of GPL is similar to the spirit of communism.
A challege for you Kintaro, name a coutry which has implimetned communism without having to retort to fasism/dictatorship to maintain it.
DUh wazzah happne herre the right wingg facist has mmee sttuck in a hhole again oh NOEZ :X
I am very aware that the problem with Communism (or any new revolutionary radical system) is that the only people interested in working with it are only interested in the power they gain from it.
GPL is still freaky pinko communism and should be banned, nonetheless, its evil, isn't it.
If you were being less specific, I would say a good implementation of Socialism is http://www.wikipedia.org and I think governments could learn from the way that is run.
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As for the schools debate, not everyone is a genius with computers. Their are morons out there who will get spyware and bullshit on computers. However instead of the educational facilities actually educating they will instead put restrictions on the systems to stop bullshit getting into the machines, as not only does bullshit smell and eat network bandwidth, but it also causes problems for students who are stupid and don't know what to do.
Live with it, learn to work around it if you want. I had a CGI Proxy running on my webserver too, with SSL support, so I could log into my gmail from school. Stop bitching and start learning ways around things, thats how schools create a good hacker.
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Israel - the kibbutzim. That's communism, on a scale of 50 inhabs or less, and works perfectly. Check the Wiki.
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Good point Jenda. I do need to learn more about it though.
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Wow! It is obvious most of you are very young and have little experience about world affairs. I work for a company who introduced a new product in China. 1st year sales were about 3.5M then they copied our product and started selling it themselves. After 2 years we pulled out of China because the Chineese government would not protect our Us patent. The business environment in China is terrible. They are thieves and will copy any product without any fear of prosecution from their own government. As a matter of fact just about every technology they have has been stolen form the Us and Uk,just like the Soviets did after WW2. China can kiss my ass!!!!!!! I think all their products should be boycotted because they did'nt design it themselves. As a matter of fact their government supports piracy of other countries products to market as their own! They remind me of the Borg in Star Trek just taking as they please. But unfortunately there are a lot of companies who view China with dollar signs in their eyes(Untill their products are copied)I would'nt even consider doing business there again and thank God our Ceo will never go there again. I do agree with most of you that their government is corrupt and the people should be free to do as they please and censorship in any way is wrong. I also understand that not all people are corrupt and would prefer to be honest citizens, but after having such a bad expereience there I will never return or ever do business there again. Wait till they copy Microsofts operating system and start selling it as there own, we'll see what happens then!
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Israel - the kibbutzim. That's communism, on a scale of 50 inhabs or less, and works perfectly. Check the Wiki.
That's nice except it wasn't implimented by the government and it has regressed more or less back into capitalism since the initial problem that led to it's creation.
from wiki:
The kibbutzim were founded in a time when independent farming was not practical. Forced by necessity into communal life, and inspired by their own socialist ideology, the kibbutz members developed a pure communal mode of living that attracted interest from the entire world. While the kibbutzim lasted for several generations as utopian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia) communities, today kibbutzim are scarcely different from the capitalist enterprises and regular towns to which the kibbutzim were originally supposed to be alternatives.
Translation: It started out as a great solution to a problem, but when the need for it vanished, people stopped liking it so much.
Farming co-ops are actually extremely common in the United States, because independent farming is not practical. Multiple farmer form into coops so they can leverage their market power more effectively.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative)
I think the reason small socialist communities succeed is due to the fact that they are able to find enough people who are willing to particiapate. It doesn't work on a national scale though. It never has.
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And as for you high-schoolers who complain about school policies, here's what I have to say. First of all, most of you have never paid taxes! While I have been paying them for almost 30 years. You have no right to do with school computers as you please!!!! The rules are in place for you to follow not to break! The school computers are to be used for research and schoolwork only!!!!!!! If you want to play games do it at home!!!! While I will agree with most of you that you probably know more about computers than the people who are in charge of those systems, you still you have no right to break the rules!!!! As a matter fact I have 2 college students and guess what there are rules on my computers at home too!!!!! I'm the one who pays for them and I'm the one who pays for the internet service!!! If I ever catch one of them surfing web sites that are questionable I will pull the plug!! Sounds like most of you need to grow up!!!! When you have(and pay for) your own home and pay for all of your own stuff, then and only then can you do as you please!!!! And guess what Big Brother is watching!!!!!!
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And as for you high-schoolers who complain about school policies, here's what I have to say. First of all, most of you have never paid taxes! While I have been paying them for almost 30 years. You have no right to do with school computers as you please!!!! The rules are in place for you to follow not to break! The school computers are to be used for research and schoolwork only!!!!!!! If you want to play games do it at home!!!! While I will agree with most of you that you probably know more about computers than the people who are in charge of those systems, you still you have no right to break the rules!!!! As a matter fact I have 2 college students and guess what there are rules on my computers at home too!!!!! I'm the one who pays for them and I'm the one who pays for the internet service!!! If I ever catch one of them surfing web sites that are questionable I will pull the plug!! Sounds like most of you need to grow up!!!! When you have(and pay for) your own home and pay for all of your own stuff, then and only then can you do as you please!!!! And guess what Big Brother is watching!!!!!!
and gues what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am big brother!
Mr X
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And as for you high-schoolers who complain about school policies, here's what I have to say. First of all, most of you have never paid taxes! While I have been paying them for almost 30 years. You have no right to do with school computers as you please!!!! The rules are in place for you to follow not to break! The school computers are to be used for research and schoolwork only!!!!!!! If you want to play games do it at home!!!! While I will agree with most of you that you probably know more about computers than the people who are in charge of those systems, you still you have no right to break the rules!!!! As a matter fact I have 2 college students and guess what there are rules on my computers at home too!!!!! I'm the one who pays for them and I'm the one who pays for the internet service!!! If I ever catch one of them surfing web sites that are questionable I will pull the plug!! Sounds like most of you need to grow up!!!! When you have(and pay for) your own home and pay for all of your own stuff, then and only then can you do as you please!!!! And guess what Big Brother is watching!!!!!!
42 or 14?
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And as for you high-schoolers who complain about school policies, here's what I have to say. First of all, most of you have never paid taxes! While I have been paying them for almost 30 years. You have no right to do with school computers as you please!!!! The rules are in place for you to follow not to break! The school computers are to be used for research and schoolwork only!!!!!!! If you want to play games do it at home!!!! While I will agree with most of you that you probably know more about computers than the people who are in charge of those systems, you still you have no right to break the rules!!!! As a matter fact I have 2 college students and guess what there are rules on my computers at home too!!!!! I'm the one who pays for them and I'm the one who pays for the internet service!!! If I ever catch one of them surfing web sites that are questionable I will pull the plug!! Sounds like most of you need to grow up!!!! When you have(and pay for) your own home and pay for all of your own stuff, then and only then can you do as you please!!!! And guess what Big Brother is watching!!!!!!
If there weren't school policies for computer use by students, or better censoring and security, the school wouldn't have to hire two overpaid pricks to check every 30 minutes if those 13-year old shitheads aren't surfing for porn.
This means us paying less taxes, and those Big Brothers to get real jobs already.
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And as for you high-schoolers who complain about school policies, here's what I have to say. First of all, most of you have never paid taxes! While I have been paying them for almost 30 years. You have no right to do with school computers as you please!!!! The rules are in place for you to follow not to break! The school computers are to be used for research and schoolwork only!!!!!!! If you want to play games do it at home!!!! While I will agree with most of you that you probably know more about computers than the people who are in charge of those systems, you still you have no right to break the rules!!!! As a matter fact I have 2 college students and guess what there are rules on my computers at home too!!!!! I'm the one who pays for them and I'm the one who pays for the internet service!!! If I ever catch one of them surfing web sites that are questionable I will pull the plug!! Sounds like most of you need to grow up!!!! When you have(and pay for) your own home and pay for all of your own stuff, then and only then can you do as you please!!!! And guess what Big Brother is watching!!!!!!
You completely misread my post, I wasn't complaining about school policy to do whatever I wanted, I was complaining about it because there were clearly problems with it, once the computers got a virus and it took them about 2 weeks (maybe longer) just to clean the computers, if they actually learn something and use safer software then the computers would actually run better....
They are payed for that job, and yet they still make crap work of it, it irritates me. :thumbdwn:
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Listen guy's, I understand your frustration and I do apologize if I offended anyone. However my point does stand about rules. I'm sure most of you would make better administrators than the one's you have. I enjoy the immense knowledge you all have here thats why I became a member of this forum. For now just do what you have to do to complete your educations and move on to the next level. Do your research at home where you do not have to worry about idiot's who could'nt set up a quality network for you to work on at school. Make a difference in the world as I know you all will. Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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It's alright superk, I agree with you, and I'd imagine that a few more of our mature members here will also agree with you too.
Is it so fucking hard for lot to understand that; YOU DO NOT OWN THE SCHOOL COMPUTERS THE SCHOOL DOES. THIS MEANS THE SCHOOL HAS THE RIGHT TO DICTATE HOW YOU USE THEM, AND CAN BAN YOU FOR ANY REASON!
Grow up for fuck sake! :rolleyes:
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bin this flamewar already. sheesh