Stop Microsoft
Operating Systems => Linux and UNIX => Topic started by: Pathos on 5 August 2005, 14:17
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Hi I'm a second year University student (BSc, Waikato, NZ) and I will soon be converting to Linux.
Well...almost, can't let go of WinXP yet, it supports too many programs that I like too use. And its getting better with the onslaught of commercial grade GPL applications being released ;).
I've got an extra 512mb of ram (from 256) and and extra80gig HD (from 40) in preparation. I'm looking for a simple distribution of Linux. One that will support all my hardware, has a basic gui and will let me get my hands dirty.
We have some dedicated linux labs setup at our university (gentoo) which has really made me fall in love with the OS. The file system is so clean, the gui so simple yet fully accessable and the shell scripting is very cool. Windows looks like a bombsite in comparision with its folders scrambled all over the place attempting to hide them from the user.
BUT...gentoo seems so slow. With the gnome gui gedit takes 4 seconds to startup, and another 2 to allow input. Why? These machines were far more powerful than mine yet struggle with this simple application. It takes 2 seconds to start the gimp on mine. 0.1 seconds to start up Notepad2 my favourite text editor. I do notice how ever the OS is always instantly responsive when a program hangs unlike Windows.
Sadly I am yet to see a Linux GUI that feels and looks as good as my current skin on WinXP with the Shareware version of WindowBlinds. None seem to respond as fast.
So please help me choose which distribution to get: Fedora, Gentoo, Debian (why is this so big?), other...
Also I am planning to possibly get a dual monitor setup on a Radeon 9600XT. Will this be a problem?
:tux::tux::tux:
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You can try ubuntu for basic stuff, you ca get a live CD from ubuntulinux.com and if you like it, download it
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If you wanna try Ubuntu first via Emulation, don't do so with Virtual PC. It won't work (kernel panic while booting).
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I am using Fedora Core 4, with Gnome, on a 2.4GHz Pentium 4 with 1.5GB RAM.
FYI, gedit starts (and accepts input) in less than 1.5 seconds, as I timed it just now.
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I'd say Ubuntu's great for me, but it is indeed rather slow. It's ABSOLUTELY PERFECT for a person who wants a REAL OS to fill the function of MSWin. That is my case. And the shipit service is awesome.
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I am using Fedora Core 4, with Gnome, on a 2.4GHz Pentium 4 with 1.5GB RAM.
FYI, gedit starts (and accepts input) in less than 1.5 seconds, as I timed it just now.
Thats still very slow (Notepad2 on WinXP = instant, less than quarter of a second).
Is it Gnome and/or the shell/Kernel that slows it down so much? Can you similar performance to winXP with another distribution/gui?
I'm probably heading towards Fedora Core at the moment. I want a distribution that is fully installed, I'll try the Ubuntu CD if I get my hands on it.
Only problem is that I have 56k modem so I can't download anything big. May have to order it.
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HS 1.5ram.
Thats still very slow (Notepad2 = instant, less than quarter of a second).
Is it Gnome and/or the shell that slows it down so much. Can you get a very basic GUI that has similar performance to windows?
I use XFCE (http://xfce.org) and find it very responsive for my 256mb ram.
It's a good, lightweight window manager.
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If 1.5 seconds is too long for you to wait to start typing, well, that's just plain scary.
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I just assume that there is a Linux GUI that can compete with Micosofts latest OS for speed...
When I cleaned up our old Pentium 150 (32mb ram) with Win98 it could open Notepad quick, even MS Word was ~7 secs so why does Linux choke such a modern machine so badly? I just can't understand it.
...some of the blame probably has to go to gEdit as gVim is alot faster even tho it has decent syntax hilighting.
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I'll try the Ubuntu CD if I get my hands on it.
Only problem is that I have 56k modem so I can't download anything big. May have to order it.
You might know this, but just in case: http://www.shipit.org will send you as many Ubuntu CDs as you wish completely free of charge. It takes a few weeks, but don't give up, they always come in the end.
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I've never liked any Rehat Linux they've always been bloadted and slow.
Worker, 1.5 seconds on your hardware is slow, notepad and word pad both start in <2 seconds on my 1800Mhz machine with 256MB oof RAM (this is bullshit anyway as we're comparing totally differant programs on totally differant systems). Ubuntu isn't too bad, it uses way less resources than XP and Vector Linux is very fast, you could also try knoppix - I've had reasonable performance running it from a CD and if you install it on your hard drive it should fly.
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This thread is probably going to turn into a oooo use-this-instead-of-that thread.... so i'm just going to put mine in.
go for suse. (although i'm a little biased on that because no other linux company offered me free stuff like they did and no linux distro handles like it). I think i should put in the fact that the free stuff came AFTER i was in love with suse :D.
and one more thing, if you use xfce, almost any distro will function faster than KDE and GNOME. I use a 2GHz machine with 256+512 of ram and it still strugles (about 2.5-3 seconds) with opening simple stuff like kate (edior).
BTW, novell is giving away another resource kit for free to anyone wants to try out their software. dont have the link. but i think you altually had to receive an email to get it. not sure though.
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I am a big fan of SuSE too, 1 main reason is because the install setup is very easy to use with people who hae over 128MBs of ram and at least 500MHz CPU, If you meat these requirements it turns into a graphic install. Ubuntu is good for beginners but suse is good for people who know how to use linux but dont want something complicated
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Worker, 1.5 seconds on your hardware is slow, notepad and word pad both start in <2 seconds on my 1800Mhz machine with 256MB oof RAM (this is bullshit anyway as we're comparing totally differant programs on totally differant systems).
You're right, this is bullshit. But all the same, that 1.5 seconds to open gedit has to be qualified. I was running a bittorrent download, firefox, gaim, a gnome terminal, and transcode in a second terminal (demuxing video) at the same time. With the 4 different workspaces, it is sometimes hard to keep track. ;)
But really, speed is one of those things that you don't miss if you don't have it. OpenOffice on Linux 2.6.12 doesn't really open any faster than WordPerfect8 on Windows 95. It just seems like it does, since minesweeper and notepad have remained unchanged all these years.
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It takes me about two seconds to open up GNU Emacs (in X), but then when I close it and open it again, it pops up in no time atall.
Does the same thing happen for you ppl with gedit?
Does the same thing happen in Windows (try it with something like Firefox)?
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BTW, novell is giving away another resource kit for free to anyone wants to try out their software. dont have the link. but i think you altually had to receive an email to get it. not sure though.
https://secure-www.novell.com/community/linux/order.php?email=%25%25emailaddr%25%25
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Thats still very slow (Notepad2 on WinXP = instant, less than quarter of a second).
Is it Gnome and/or the shell/Kernel that slows it down so much? Can you similar performance to winXP with another distribution/gui?
If speed is so significant for you, then don't bother with OSS systems. Just stick with yer suck-bills-balls-Windows or what ever ;)
You see, commercial platforms have a market-driven userland, which is mostly standardized, like in Windows. Software can be prelinked against system interfaces during compile-time, and so they work fast as hell.
In GNU/Linux you have no standards, no single userland to prelink software with. And this also makes it hard to mane binary software distributions at all! If one wants to be 100% sure his software works, then one gotta distribute it as source and let end users bang their heads to the wall while compiling it.
I'm probably heading towards Fedora Core at the moment. I want a distribution that is fully installed, I'll try the Ubuntu CD if I get my hands on it.
Only problem is that I have 56k modem so I can't download anything big. May have to order it.
NOW THAT is a PROBLEM.
Modern distributions are based around the net. They need to be linked with the central software repository, which contains the pre-compiled applications for that distro.
The thing is, without a fast internet connection your Linux distribution is pretty much useless. You can't install applications as in windows, dl some exe and run it ... in Linux there are no userland standards to make easy binary distribution: each software dependes on other pieces of software, the other software depends on other and so forth ...
this is because the whole GNU/Linux is nothing but the most essential c-libraries, all other components must be dealt with individually.
So you have to rely on the distribution's central software repository, and the application collection it offers, because these 'packages' have all the dependencies resolved, and stored into the repository. An installation of a simple application might need about 20 other components to be installed ... and without automation getting those components would be a fucking frustrating job i tell ya ...
So you are still interested? If so, then wellcome, have fun, and PM me about your first experiences on this wonderful chaos called "GNU/Linux".
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It takes me about two seconds to open up GNU Emacs (in X), but then when I close it and open it again, it pops up in no time atall.
Does the same thing happen for you ppl with gedit?
Does the same thing happen in Windows (try it with something like Firefox)?
This is the same with all programs on all modern operating systems, the program loads instantly because it remains in the disc cache when it's closed so it doesn't need to be loaded again unless it's been overwritten by something else.
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This is the same with all programs on all modern operating systems, the program loads instantly because it remains in the disc cache when it's closed so it doesn't need to be loaded again unless it's been overwritten by something else.
Ah right.
Ksym, I was on dialup all my internet-life up untill a few weeks ago. When I switched to mandrake over a year ago (using cd's I asked my brother to download, 'cause he has broadband), on 56k, I updated all the packages in half a night. Keeping the system up to date was easy as pie (in Windows, after a reinstall, updating took _forever_. And I coundnt find out how to save the updates to disk or whatever). I never had a problem with loads of dependencies I didn't want being downloaded or anything like that. None of the problems you describe actually occured. Whenever packages were downloaded, they were stored somewhere in /var (cant remember exactly) and I just burned them to disk and installed them any time I reinstalled (infact, I never reinstalled mandrake.).
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Ah right.
Ksym, I was on dialup all my internet-life up untill a few weeks ago. When I switched to mandrake over a year ago (using cd's I asked my brother to download, 'cause he has broadband), on 56k, I updated all the packages in half a night. Keeping the system up to date was easy as pie (in Windows, after a reinstall, updating took _forever_. And I coundnt find out how to save the updates to disk or whatever). I never had a problem with loads of dependencies I didn't want being downloaded or anything like that. None of the problems you describe actually occured. Whenever packages were downloaded, they were stored somewhere in /var (cant remember exactly) and I just burned them to disk and installed them any time I reinstalled (infact, I never reinstalled mandrake.).
With a 56k system upgrade takes a lot of time. And one gotta keep up to date, or some third party apps just won't work.
Just admit it, there are no standards and no stable userland schemes in any GNU/Linux distros. All of them are just billions of small pieces parsed together with the power of yer internet connection. No offense, but this kind of system designs just sucks.
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With a 56k system upgrade takes a lot of time.
No it does NOT. It's nowhere near as bad as on Windows.
The only tough bit is getting your hands on the CD(s). From then on, it's free sailing.
Plus, I find that free programs contain less bloat than non-free programs (take a look at blender. Then other similar non-free programs. Take a look at Cinelerra... Take a look at the GIMP...). And downloading then takes alot less time.
Heh, I used to get my brother to download all applications I wanted. Cause I couldn't get them on 56k. But getting the GIMP, Cinelerra, free software programs... Now he's obselete :D
And one gotta keep up to date, or some third party apps just won't work.
I've never had any problems with stuff not compiling because of that, and I've used Slackware (10.0 and 10.1) alot which I _never_ updated (didn't know how heh.). And on Slackware I compiled everything I wanted/needed anyhow.
Just admit it, there are no standards and no stable userland schemes in any GNU/Linux distros. All of them are just billions of small pieces parsed together with the power of yer internet connection. No offense, but this kind of system designs just sucks.
There's no standards accross the different distributions alright. And it's terrible, I know. But inside each distribution, be it Mandriva, Fedora Core, Debian, or whatever, everything just works.
It's a wonderful system!
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I've never had any problems with stuff not compiling because of that, and I've used Slackware (10.0 and 10.1) alot which I _never_ updated (didn't know how heh.). And on Slackware I compiled everything I wanted/needed anyhow.
There's no standards accross the different distributions alright. And it's terrible, I know. But inside each distribution, be it Mandriva, Fedora Core, Debian, or whatever, everything just works.
It's a wonderful system!
You were just being lucky.
You see, it is all about what version development headers/m4-macros the software developers used.
Wanna try building Linux Dc++ on yer slackware? It uses GTK 2.4, and Debian OS does not provide this new version of it.
So you gotta compile it by hand, and all it's dependencies (libatk if i remember correctly).
I have no problems with such a task, but many newb users get frustrated with these kidna defiencies. And this is what makes Linux too chaotic for enterprise level, where everything, EVEN SOFTWARE INSTALLATION, needs to work every time.
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I'm not bothered that some non-free developers have trouble getting their non-free programs onto our free operating system. I'm actually quite glad.
IMO, inventing the LGPL and applying it to glibc was a bad move by GNU. I'm quite surprised they did it. If it wasn't RMS in control (assuming it was. I dunno though, but I know that he definetly accepts the LGPL), I'd probably expect him to make his own GPL library.
RMS wanted a free operating system. He has it now, and now they're trying to make BIOSes free software. What they want is not a free operating system, but a system of entirely free software. So expliticly (why the hell won't google/dictionary.com help me spell that properly :mad:?) allowing non-free software on the system is just retarded.
But they did it so the operating system could survive and maybe someday go mainstream. I've no doubt that the operating system would definetly have survived (we've got free alternatives for almost everything. Currently we don't need non-free software for a usable system.), but going mainstream is another thing entirely.
I wouldn't want it to go mainstream unless the major apps and the whole of the OS are free software. I mean, I don't want it to go mainstream unless my system can be totally free software (so all the tools I use must be free). I'd be surprised if RMS thought differently. Which is why I think for him to accept the LGPL, is just silly.
I'd much prefer everything to be free software. And to outlaw non-free software rather than welcome it like GNU did when they invented the LGPL.
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Wanna try building Linux Dc++ on yer slackware? It uses GTK 2.4, and Debian OS does not provide this new version of it.
So you gotta compile it by hand, and all it's dependencies (libatk if i remember correctly).
Whiny little bitch! I built gtk-2.8 from source on my Mac! It's not that hard.
Anybody who expects this Linux thing to be easy is going to be very disappointed.
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Anybody who expects this Linux thing to be easy is going to be very disappointed.
Do you mean getting that GNU/Linux DC++ working or learning GNU/Linux?
In case of the latter, we're talking about Ubuntu. It's not hard to use. It's just slightly different to Windows. Just the same with Mac OS X.
I was amazed when my brother came home with his powerbook (which he'd had for a good few days) and didn't understand alot of stuff about Mac OS X. How to install software. How to get stuff off the tray thing... Simple things like that.
And it's not because Mac OS X is hard to use, it's just because it's not the same as Windows, the only operating system he's used to. If the laptop was running ubuntu, he'd have similar problems (installing software anyhow). And it's not because Ubuntu is hard to use either.
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Whiny little bitch! I built gtk-2.8 from source on my Mac! It's not that hard.
Anybody who expects this Linux thing to be easy is going to be very disappointed.
Yes, it is not hard if you know how to do it. I know, done this, been there, done that ...
But many other users will get disappointed in Linux since there is no stable userland ABI to distribute pre-built binaries on.
Currently it's all about the glue the package managers and their pre-built binary repos can do.
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I had trouble with OSX at the beginning because I was too used to Windows. I expected things to be as difficult as they are in Windows. The fact that they were so much simpler, well I was not prepared for that.
Suck Ubuntu's cock all you want, but someday you're going to have to edit a makefile by hand to correct a config error. And there isn't anything in the world but experience that can prepare you for that.
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Suck Ubuntu's cock all you want
WTF I'm just saying that Ubuntu is a fucking easy distribution to use just like Mac OS X is a fucking easy OS to use, regardless of the odd person not immediatly understanding how to install software or whatever, only because they're used to some other DIFFERENT operating system.
:fu:
Why is cock sucking always assosiated with Ubuntu and never Mac OS X? It seems much more appropriate for Apple users. And I'm just giving you facts and opinions about GNU/Linux or Ubuntu.
but someday you're going to have to edit a makefile by hand to correct a config error. And there isn't anything in the world but experience that can prepare you for that.
Been there, done that. I've had to edit C code to get some packages to compile (isdn4k-utils when I was on slackware; gnumach-1.3 on GNU/Hurd, (but that was only due to multi-line string literals being deprecated in recent version of gcc, and gnumach-1.3 was released in 2002 and uses them. So changing it was pretty easy (though there was _loads_ of them))), and that was long before I learned C.
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Suck Ubuntu's cock all you want, but someday you're going to have to edit a makefile by hand to correct a config error. And there isn't anything in the world but experience that can prepare you for that.
This is why I just love GNU/Linux.
Makes me feel more like a MAN!
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You guys are horribly off topic...I don't need to compile anything yet :)
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The thing that nobody realizes is that everything actually sucks. Some things suck less than others.
When you realize that nothing is actually good, and everything is only varying degrees of shit, then you'll live happier.
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glass half empty hah?
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Nah, things aren't really that bad. It's just that things aren't super duper good in technology. We're still way too early for anything to be "great".
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BUT...gentoo seems so slow. With the gnome gui gedit takes 4 seconds to startup, and another 2 to allow input. Why? These machines were far more powerful than mine yet struggle with this simple application. It takes 2 seconds to start the gimp on mine. 0.1 seconds to start up Notepad2 my favourite text editor. I do notice how ever the OS is always instantly responsive when a program hangs unlike Windows.
Just found this: http://live.gnome.org/MemoryReduction
The plan is to reduce the amount of memory that Gnome applications consume. Gnome is barely usable on a machine with 128 MB of RAM; contrast this with Windows XP, which is very snappy on such a configuration.
At least they're working on it.
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These machines had 512mg ram and over 100mg free.
Linux apparently runs applications in "user mode" for security unlike microsoft which would explain it. But I think its just that gedit is not well optimised.
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If you'd rather build all your apps and packages by hand using --with-target=whatever and with sse2 enabled, feel free. You can totally optimize your packages. Hell, you can optimize the whole damn kernel if you want. But it's just plain easier to use generic rpms.
I'm with Kintaro - Linux is not for whiners. Get tough or get out. You can't complain unless you are paying for development or leading development yourself. Linux can do anything and everything you ever dreamed of and more - but it's up to you to make it happen. If you want to sit back and have eye-candy spoonfed to you, then perhaps Linux isn't for you.
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I just downloaded Damn Small Linux only four hours on the 56k (surfing as well), it sounds really cool, going to try it now.
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I didn't show the gui when I tried to make it boot with specific vga setting.
It worked when I didn't choose any settings.
Now it doesn't no matter what I do...
Welcome to linux pathos.
I know its got something to do with the graphic mode which narrows it down.
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Yeah, welcome to Linux, Pathos.
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You see, commercial platforms have a market-driven userland, which is mostly standardized, like in Windows. Software can be prelinked against system interfaces during compile-time, and so they work fast as hell.
In GNU/Linux you have no standards, no single userland to prelink software with.
Unfortunately for you, there is a program called Prelink that will link binaries against the system. Some new distributions (RHEL4 for example) will automatically run that in cron every once in a while.
I just did some timings myself:
Gedit: 6 seconds (longer than usual...wtf)
Emacs: 3 seconds
gVim: 1 second
AbiWord: 4 seconds (not bad considering it has to load some Gnome libs first. Inside Gnome, it would be maybe half this)
More importantly though, I find that Linux apps are very fast once they are loaded, even if they take slightly longer to load. Making it even more moot is the fact that MS Notepad is 95% the same app that it was in 1990, when it took about 3 seconds to load on a decent machine.
Also, I believe in loading programs and keeping them loaded, even on Windows. I never quit Gedit or anything else because I'd just have to reload it. I recommend doing this unless you have 256MB RAM or something.
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With the 4 concurrent desktops that most Linuxes offer, there's no point in closing oft-used programs like gedit, terminal, and Firefox.
I might just be blowing smoke here, but I have a theory on why programs might load slowly. I don't think Gnome keeps the desktop in memory at all times the way Windows does. The proof is that if you download something to your desktop, it won't be visible until you refresh. So loading a program causes you to dump the desktop from memory before loading the program into memory. Which would account for the extra seconds. Of course this leaves more memory to use in the program, and prevents you from having to fuck around with paging files, thrashing, or "illegal operation" issues like Windows. For people that like to drop stuff to the desktop, though, this can get kinda frustrating, since you have to get into the desktop folder and refresh or logout to get things to show up.
IF this is the case, then I will gladly take a few seconds opening hit in tradeoff for more and better managed memory.
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I used to think WindowMaker was all the rage, until I used XFCE, which is so easier to use and faster than anything I have ever tried (Including the recent KDE and GNOME), that I'd recommend people use it.
The themes are very good too, I currently use a Mac OS Classic theme, which brings back memories of System 7 :D
Here's a picture :-
(http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9671/xfcescreencap24rz.png)
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The last thing I want my computer to do (especially my Mac) is remind me of System 7!
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I got it working again with the Failsafe option.
Gonna have to design my own style file and write a new master CD once I've got it purring how I like.
Its just like Linux should be, simple and fast. I love it.
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There is a single menu bar in Mac OS, it is of the current application.
Pinstripes are visible on an unfocused app.
The theme you do have is Platinum, which was introduced in Mac OS 8. And was NOT in System 7.
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OI! ... this is a linux thread.
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Hey Marathon you like Dutch music? :D
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How difficult would it be to migrate XFCE into a distribution iso like DSL?
I don't care much for Fluxbox.
EDIT: WHOA ... scrap that..
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How'bout XFCE on Ubuntu? (Just musing)
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If you really want try Knoppix, that will give you a pretty neat desktop experience.
I suggest you go with Fedora or SuSe, they have far more upto date application support, and nearly every open source dev makes RPM's for them. That is one of the major problems with Ubuntu, it seems like almost nobody can be bothered making up to date packages for it.
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heh teckies snob it.
How about debian, I've got the disk space. I'll have to nick my parent Credit card because I can't download it. Also are there any specification documents for DSL I'd really like to know how it works internally. /man ?
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Debian is a pretty good distro, it will require a lot of RTFM, but if it is learning you want to do then go for it!
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I don't think that Microsuck can officially advise you to steal your mom's credit card. But I can. If you're gonna pay, though, try SuSE.
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Just ask permision and pay them back the money - that's what I always used to do.
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Debian is a pretty good distro, it will require a lot of RTFM, but if it is learning you want to do then go for it!
Why not go for FreeBSD if one wants to do RTFM?
The documentation in FreeBSD is FAR better than in ANY GNU/Linux system out there ... well organized, man pages for all the essentials etc.
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I think I'll try get my head around Linux first,
course I'll pay back for the credit card
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Hey Marathon you like Dutch music? :D
Yes, I like it a lot. :thumbup:
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Yes, I like it a lot. :thumbup:
Like Neophyte, DJ Dana, Ferry Corsten, Armin van Buuren, DJ Ti
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Any one tried Vector Linux? I love the idea of a turbo speed OS.
Debian I would like because It has *everything*.