KDE and GNOME

[piratePenguin]

Yes but how the fuck was I suppose to know?

Maybe because I told you before? :p

Come to think of it I can't really remember about KDE, Xfce had an excellent menu editor - most of the configureation was point and click, perhapps the more advanced stuff was in the configureation file just like it should be.

In KDE you just right click a menu item and chose "Edit Item", that launches the KDE menu editor with the selected item like http://illhostit.com/files/1032938238597521/kde_menu_editor.png, which is pretty damn nice.

2.10.0 - that's not too old is it?

No, they must've changed "System" to "Desktop" in 2.14.

[worker201]

My two cents - I think gtk looks cooler than qt.  And that's all it really comes down to.  It's what you're used to.  I've been using Gnome since Fedora began.  But I used KDE in Suse before that.  If some "everything must be standardized" asshat decided that there would be no more Gnome, I wouldn't commit suicide - I'd just get used to something else.

[cymon]

But Worker, while freedom of choice is very important, I'm 100% behind that, however, standards are important. The whole lack of unix GUI standards is a big problem. While it doesn't inhibit development and use, I feel it would enhance the whole user experience. Seeing as how one of the goals of this orginazition is to eradicate Microsoft, in my experience, having a standardized UI is a great asset to new users. Few people have time to sit around for hours, reading the help files and dicking around figuring out how to make a folder or something. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against any of the Unix GUI's, but I do feel that they could be improved with some standards.

Though I haven't been able to use them much lately. I just had a motherboard blow out, so I'm back to my old Pentium Pro box. Though I just did get my new RAM in, that'll speed it up.

[worker201]

I was wondering where to put this thought I had the other day, might as well be here...

What is Linux?  Is it the mass market desktop of the future?  Is it the ideal computing environment?  Is it the best operating system that has ever been made or will ever be made?  No.  Linux was written so a guy could run Unix programs on his PC.  That's what Linux is.  I use it because there are some Unix tools that I use all the time, and even when Windows ports or Mac ports exist, they suck.

If you try and turn what is, when you get right down to the bare metal, an x86 Unix emulator (although it has grown well beyond that), into some kind of universal replacement, you will change things.  This Linux that newbs are learning and Ubuntu is distributing and people here are fantasizing about is something else altogether.  While that particular mystery OS might be enjoyable to use and perfectly fine, it won't really be Linux.  It'll be something else.  Because Linux, at its core, doesn't want to be the desktop panacea.  It doesn't even want to be user friendly, and it would probably be served rather well by dumping all GUIs.

So I don't know how I feel about dragging things in that direction.  I of course enjoy the GUI, I think it is convenient and pretty if nothing else.  But if it was gone, I would still use Linux for certain *nix apps.  At home I use OSX, and it is pretty much everything everyone here ever dreamed of.  All Apple would have to do to satisfy everyone is make it free and open, and have multiple window managers to choose from.  Nobody seems to be going in that direction with Linux - nor do they seem to even be interested in it.  Which is probably best for the OS as a whole.

[cymon]

But one of the things that makes OSX great is the consistancy. I think the Mac UI is great. It's nice, light, and intuitive. I find the Windows XP interface horrible, you have loads of flashing icons and pointless eye candy. While eye candy is nice, I detest it in large amounts, it produces undue amounts of clutter. The Mac UI is consistant, and that's what's necessary in a good GUI.

[piratePenguin]

The GNOME UI is consistent, and so is KDE's.

Desktop market share in GNU/Linux is probably split between GNOME and KDE and then the rest. I think people should consider graphical applications not GNU/Linux applications, but GNOME/KDE/GTK+/Qt/FLTK/whatever applications. KDE has KOffice, Krita, Konqueror and Kopete and GNOME has GNOME office, the GIMP, Epiphany and GAIM.

While I think it is good that GTK+ and Qt applications use the same clipboard and that DND between GNOME and KDE apps works like a charm, I don't think such functionality should be depended on. It should be assumed that GNOME and KDE apps won't be completely consistent with one another, for almost precisely the same reason it should be assumed that Windows and Mac OS X won't be completely consistent with one another either.

[H_TeXMeX_H]

KOffice is a joke to say the least ... has anyone tried that shit besides me ? I was curious about it one day ... thinking hey KDE has some nice, clean apps ... I wonder how their office software is ... well it's shit ... it's highly unstable, not very usable, or compatible (with the ever popular M$ formats I am forced to use :mad: ), or productive (just start trying to do productive stuff with it). OpenOffice is the only 'real' open-source office suite. GNOME office is quite unstable too (Gnumeric especially) ... Abiword is quite good tho.

[cymon]

The GNOME UI is consistent, and so is KDE's.

Desktop market share in GNU/Linux is probably split between GNOME and KDE and then the rest. I think people should consider graphical applications not GNU/Linux applications, but GNOME/KDE/GTK+/Qt/FLTK/whatever applications. KDE has KOffice, Krita, Konqueror and Kopete and GNOME has GNOME office, the GIMP, Epiphany and GAIM.

While I think it is good that GTK+ and Qt applications use the same clipboard and that DND between GNOME and KDE apps works like a charm, I don't think such functionality should be depended on. It should be assumed that GNOME and KDE apps won't be completely consistent with one another, for almost precisely the same reason it should be assumed that Windows and Mac OS X won't be completely consistent with one another either.

While they are consistant with themselves, it's consistancy with others that matters. The problem is that you have 'GNOME standards', and 'KDE Standards', but not Linux standards, or X11 standards, or Unix standards.

[piratePenguin]

KOffice is a joke to say the least ... has anyone tried that shit besides me ? I was curious about it one day ... thinking hey KDE has some nice, clean apps ... I wonder how their office software is ... well it's shit ... it's highly unstable, not very usable, or compatible (with the ever popular M$ formats I am forced to use :mad: ), or productive (just start trying to do productive stuff with it). OpenOffice is the only 'real' open-source office suite. GNOME office is quite unstable too (Gnumeric especially) ... Abiword is quite good tho.

I have KOffice, just to have an office suite. GNOME office wouldn't compile on the first try (could've needed a GCC 4 patch), and it's not increadibly easy to get OOo play good with gcj.

The only KOffice program that's crashed on me is KWord, and it crashes every flipping time I try to type something, so it's not usable. Krita has also crashed a bit, and it seems seriously crap, but it'll probably improve with time.

I've no need for an office suite anyhow.

[piratePenguin]

While they are consistant with themselves, it's consistancy with others that matters. The problem is that you have 'GNOME standards', and 'KDE Standards', but not Linux standards, or X11 standards, or Unix standards.

Is Mac OS X consistent with KDE?

[cymon]

No. KDE is an X11 desktop environment. Mac OS X doesn't use X11 natively, it can support X applications; however, it uses Aqua/ Quartz to provide the GUI. X isn't involved, thus making it exempt from X standards.

[inane]

Yeah I think that the best gift that Apple could give back to OSS is the source for Aqua/Quartz OS X (the first foray atleast) once they`ve gone down the road a bit. Not so much as it`s own desktop diseperate but more of a base for another GUI server and DE or for comparison and analysis for tweaking of X11 and Gnome, Flux or KDE.

Well it`s the most we could expect. I doubt we could convince them to hand over the deep deep dark secrets of Spotlight

:macos::tux::bsd:=:thumbup:

[piratePenguin]

No. KDE is an X11 desktop environment. Mac OS X doesn't use X11 natively, it can support X applications; however, it uses Aqua/ Quartz to provide the GUI. X isn't involved, thus making it exempt from X standards.

Exactly what X11 standards? A few of the ones the KDE and GNOME developers like, they conform to.
http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Standards

KDE and GNOME are different desktop enviornments just like Windows and Mac OS X have different desktop enviornments. What exactly do you expect from KDE and GNOME? They draw with Xlib, so they should be the same? They have pretty big architectural differences and exist for different reasons. KDE is mostly C++, GNOME is mostly C. KDE I don't think has ever put usability before the application of a patch, GNOME has (hence, Linus Torvalds hates GNOME). GNOME is supposed to be network object model and all sorts of crap, I dunno if KDE was/is the same. KDE exists because some guy wanted to make a consistent desktop enviornment, GNOME exists because some guy wanted to be able to run a consistent desktop enviornment on a completely free system (KDE depended on Qt, which wasn't free at the time) and is still alive because said-guy and hundreds of other developers felt like continuing the project even after Qt was GPLed.

I doubt we could convince them to hand over the deep deep dark secrets of Spotlight

I read someone's working on a spotlight-like thing for KDE4, and I think it's supposed to be better. KDE4 will also have a dashboard thing, too, muhaha Apple.

[H_TeXMeX_H]

It would be cool if they could make KOffice more stable and usable ... then people would have a choice other than OpenOffice in case it didn't work or they didn't like it. As for OpenOffice ... what I do to install it (slightly unconventional, but is probably the best option for me) is I download the rpm version from their site and extract them all manually to one folder, which will end up being a folder called opt ... inside opt is a folder called openoffice.org2.0 which should contain all components if they were extracted correctly. Then I move this folder into the /usr directory and make a launcher with the target /usr/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice and it works without being installed or having to compile it (which has failed for strange reasons)  ... this keeps yum from trying to update it to the fucked up version in the Fedora repo

[piratePenguin]

It would be cool if they could make KOffice more stable and usable ... then people would have a choice other than OpenOffice in case it didn't work or they didn't like it. As for OpenOffice ... what I do to install it (slightly unconventional, but is probably the best option for me) is I download the rpm version from their site and extract them all manually to one folder, which will end up being a folder called opt ... inside opt is a folder called openoffice.org2.0 which should contain all components if they were extracted correctly. Then I move this folder into the /usr directory and make a launcher with the target /usr/openoffice.org2.0/program/soffice and it works without being installed or having to compile it (which has failed for strange reasons)  ... this keeps yum from trying to update it to the fucked up version in the Fedora repo

Do you have a Java VM installed?
I might try that, it could work.

EDIT: Nah I think I'll wait 'till I get round to installing Debian...