Author Topic: Firefox myths  (Read 12034 times)

piratePenguin

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #60 on: 21 June 2006, 09:30 »
Quote from: Mastertech

Maybe you and all the Firefox promoters can do a better job of this instead of misleading people into thinking Firefox is some meca of W3C standards support.
Firefox has very good W3C standards support.
Quote
This is not my job and has nothing to do with the Myth. Why would people think Firefox sucks if you tell them it does not fully support standards? Oh thats right because that is what the fanboys say about IE. Hum looks like the truth hurts more when you spread lies.
WTF? IE has shit standards compliance. How come it doesn't support XHTML, which was to revolutionize the web - and seven years later IE doesn't support it. IE has shit support for W3C standards.
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Since no browser has full standards compliance it is not possible to say.
Bullshit. It is not exactly EASY to just support even 100% of HTML 4.01. But if one browser supports 90% of it and another browser supports 10% of it - couldn't it be possible that standards compliance would be a strong point of the former?
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I never made this claim. Read carefully.
I never claimed you made that claim. Read carefully.
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That is your opinion and there is no way to prove otherwise.
Do you think they are pretty big then?
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I am well aware of this claim but we will have to wait until FF 3.0 to be sure. How "good" Firefox supports standards is NOT the Myth.
But it is a TRUTH that FF has very good support for W3C standards.
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No one is disputing whether Firefox has decent support for W3C standards.
Really?:
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If standards compliance is Firefox's strong point why does it have incomplete support? Why does it not pass Acid2?
It has incomplete support because gecko isn't complete - it'd being developed all the time, getting better all the time.
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David's page doesn't even cover any of the real Myths out there.
...example?
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The only reason people would overreact is if they were misled to begin with.
6 billion people aren't all genius at everything.
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I've noticed one of the most self-serving reasons that certain people (web developers) push Firefox is in their opinion to make their job easier. This is the most dishonest thing I can think of.
Web-developers develop the web. The W3C develop standards to make their life easier. The web-developer in this day and age is not supposed to be implementing hacks for each web-browser - and they don't that much, except for IE.

There are MANY reasons people don't want IE dominating the web. MS are fucking the web up, that's one. MS are already too powerful, that's another. IE only works on Windows natively, that's another. IE is non-free software, that's another.... IE is SHIT, that's another....
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Web developers always go off topic like this. Honestly people don't care about something they do not use. Completely irrelevant to the page.
SO WHAT, I'm replying to your stupid fucking comments here (about standards compliance and such), not everything I say has to be related to the page.
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Again off topic but end users don't care. Sorry to say this but I would code pages so all the major browsers could access the page. Otherwise you are shutting out 85% or our audience which is a bad idea.
OH shit - I never noticed.

The stuff on my site is nothing important. Most of it is JS/SVG stuff that won't work in IE anyhow. I have to get to work on a HTML 4.01 page to educate IE users soon...
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Yeah right except the hundreds of thousands of visitors who appreciate it.
LOL!
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Yes of course Opera is not fully standards compliant. That changes nothing in regards to Firefox not being fully standards compliant either. What is this sort of Defense?
No it's not. My point is that there's Opera users (the Opera CEO!) going around saying Opera is fully standards compliance.

It's not only FF users who are misled using your logic :p  (as opposed to just not being careful enuff, or just not being knowledgable enuff, or any other possible explanation...)
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Oh it is ok I robbed the bank because someone else did? Interesting logic or really a diversion? How come Firefox promoters must always redirect things instead of dealing with the truth?
:rolleyes:
« Last Edit: 21 June 2006, 09:40 by piratePenguin »
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Dark_Me

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #61 on: 21 June 2006, 09:31 »
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That is such nonsense. IE doesn't run Windows.

One would hope not no. Learn what a shell is.
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Why not stick to facts you can substantiate?

Pardon? What does that mean?
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Mastertech

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #62 on: 21 June 2006, 13:42 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
Firefox has very good W3C standards support.
In your opinion and I am sure many others. But this is irrelevant to the Myth. There are no Myths that Firefox does not have good/decent W3C standards support. This has nothing to do with the Myth. Anyone can check the source to see a general idea of it's standards support and even get a relative comparison to IE and Opera.

Quote from: piratePenguin
WTF? IE has shit standards compliance. How come it doesn't support XHTML, which was to revolutionize the web - and seven years later IE doesn't support it. IE has shit support for W3C standards.
Does it? Apparently IE supports the most commonly used standards fairly well and the key ones that it does not IE7 fixes, mainly CSS issues and the hacks you talk about. Standards and CSS in IE

Quote from: piratePenguin
Bullshit. It is not exactly EASY to just support even 100% of HTML 4.01. But if one browser supports 90% of it and another browser supports 10% of it - couldn't it be possible that standards compliance would be a strong point of the former?
Possibly if you were selling the Browser to Web Developers. Don't get me wrong I am well aware of Web Developers concerns. I however take the perspective of the average end user. They simply do not care and for good reason. What end users care about is web page compatibility, they really do not want to hear excuses why something breaks.

Quote from: piratePenguin
I never claimed you made that claim. Read carefully.
No you just said I must be fooling myself ect... so I do not know who you were talking to.

Quote from: piratePenguin
Do you think they are pretty big then?
I believe it is quite legitimate. Simply read the the about page:

"Founded in 1998, The Web Standards Project (WaSP) fights for standards that reduce the cost and complexity of development while increasing the accessibility and long-term viability of any site published on the Web. We work with browser companies, authoring tool makers, and our peers to deliver the true power of standards to this medium."

That is pretty much your concerns. Funny how if Firefox passed this test I believe you would have a very different view on this. See these are the things that concern me about people who pander Firefox. Firefox can do no wrong until something else does it better than whatever it is the other browser does better is not important. That to me is very suspect.

Quote from: piratePenguin
But it is a TRUTH that FF has very good support for W3C standards.
Again this is your opinion, I am not disputing it. I really don't care because in the terms of the page I am simply addressing the Myths outlined.

Quote from: piratePenguin
It has incomplete support because gecko isn't complete - it'd being developed all the time, getting better all the time.

Whatever, that is still an excuse. The point is clear it doesn't fully support W3C standards and that is what the Myth is about.

Quote from: piratePenguin
...example?
ActiveX, OS Integration ect... It also provides no source or reproduceable documented proof for flat out misleading statements like:

"In regard to webpage rendering, Firefox is most often faster than Internet Explorer" - Really where is the proof? I provide proof for everything I debunk. Yet he is allowed to get away with BS like this on the whole page. But see that is what the Fanboys want to hear.

Quote from: piratePenguin
6 billion people aren't all genius at everything.
Which is why I made the page.

Quote from: piratePenguin
Web-developers develop the web. The W3C develop standards to make their life easier. The web-developer in this day and age is not supposed to be implementing hacks for each web-browser - and they don't that much, except for IE.

There are MANY reasons people don't want IE dominating the web. MS are fucking the web up, that's one. MS are already too powerful, that's another. IE only works on Windows natively, that's another. IE is non-free software, that's another.... IE is SHIT, that's another....
SO WHAT, I'm replying to your stupid fucking comments here (about standards compliance and such), not everything I say has to be related to the page.
I don't focus on emotional reasons here. I stick to the facts. I completely understand why you care, I simply do not.

Quote from: piratePenguin
No it's not. My point is that there's Opera users (the Opera CEO!) going around saying Opera is fully standards compliance.
I really don't care. Opera is obviously not fully standards compliant. I make no claim on the page otherwise.

Quote from: piratePenguin
It's not only FF users who are misled using your logic :p  (as opposed to just not being careful enuff, or just not being knowledgable enuff, or any other possible explanation...)
Misled, that is exactly the opposite of what my page is about. With the information I provide they can now make a non-biased, non-fanboy influenced decision.

piratePenguin

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #63 on: 21 June 2006, 14:11 »
Quote
That is pretty much your concerns. Funny how if Firefox passed this test I believe you would have a very different view on this. See these are the things that concern me about people who pander Firefox. Firefox can do no wrong until something else does it better than whatever it is the other browser does better is not important. That to me is very suspect.
Ah sure Firefox advocates are the spawn of the devil.

Fanboy.
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
 - Noah And The Whale: Give a little love



a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

pofnlice

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #64 on: 21 June 2006, 15:31 »
yes...I used to have to clean viruses with IE all the time. At least once a week. My wife isn't very discriminate about what sites she goes to and whether or not she will allow an active x control to download or cookies.

I have only had to do this once with firefox. I haven't used or tried opera in about 1 1/2 years.
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Refalm

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #65 on: 21 June 2006, 16:21 »
IE still doesn't support
Content

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #66 on: 21 June 2006, 18:31 »
Quote from: Mastertech
Correct! I don't, I merely hate misinformation.

So do I which is why I hate your artical, note I don't think much of Internet Explorer or Firefox, but I prefer the latter.

Quote from: Mastertech

Actually ActiveX is secure by default. It will always prompt you to install the control. People who complain about "Auto-Installing Spyware" are running unpatched machines or have MSJVM installed.


And what's a nube to do?

Probably just click on yes because they don't know what they're doing, oh and good old CERT knows about the problems with ActiveX too (read on).

Either way, no one here believes any of the Firefox myths, we all know that FireFox isn't 100% secure (no browser is) but you cannot deny the fact that Microsoft Internet Explorer is the worst as far as security is concerned. Opera is probably one of the most secure browsers around, infact my bet would be on a text-only browser like Lynx.

http://www.webdevout.net/security_summary.php

Old news I know but even CERT recommend you use an alternative to IE.

http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878

You talk about standards, well as far as I'm concerned IE is one big problem because it's using a form of vendor lock in to retain its dominance rather than being superiour from a technilogical aspect.

Quote from: Mastertech
"Firefox has lower System Requirements than Internet Explorer"


That doesn't mean anything, any software vendor can give overly optimistic minimum system requirements, the very fact that you've mentioned this means you're trying to misinform people. Rather than look at this you should focus more on things like memory usage, here's an example of how minimim requirements are confusing XP lists a minimum requirement of 64MB of RAM while Ubuntu, lists 256MB, however the default configureations for both OSs result in similar memory usage, both use between 80MB and 110MB when booted up with no other porgrams running.

Quote from: Mastertech

Market Share 2005

Well you can play with the numbers all you want but does anyone really care?

For example I could argue that UNIX has more vunerabilities than Windows because more are listed on Secunia, but there again I would be forgetting the fact that UNIX is a very big familly of operating systems.

See my point?

The anti-Firefox crowd will push the figures one way and the pro-Firefox crowd will push them the other way.

Quote from: Mastertech
"Firefox is the Fastest Web Browser"


Again, it depends on how you measure speed, the fact that you only mention start up time is an indication thet you're trying to decieve people, also you've made no mention of the fact that IE is only faster because it's already loaded when you boo Windows and that you can pre-fetch Firefox so it pops up just as quickly.

Quote from: Mastertech
OS Integration Security

This is plain wrong, just read the CERT article and you'll see.

Quote from: Mastertech
Acid 2 Browser Test

I know, Opera is the only browser that passes it, but just you try it in IE then Firefox, sure Firefox doesn't pass but it's a damn sight nearer to passing than IE is.

Quote from: Mastertech
"Firefox is completely compatible with every Web Site"

Neither is Internet Explorer, but there again just because more developers support IE it doesn't make it any better.

Quote from: Mastertech
I provide free advice on how to secure you system here: Secure XP. The only time you ever have to reformat a PC due to Malware infection is if it is a Rootkit.

And I've read it and it's bullshit, the very fact that you've been infected by a Rootkit before means you're not doing things right.

Anyway, I've read on your site you like OpenOffice.org, what's your view on MS Office, and what about MS Works? Do you agree with me tha MS Works is a complete was of space?
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

H_TeXMeX_H

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #67 on: 21 June 2006, 19:03 »
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worker201

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #68 on: 21 June 2006, 20:54 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
The W3C developed XHTML some time around 1999 - 7 years ago. Even in IE7, it is not supported. Send IE7 an XHTML document, as long as you're using the proper MIME type, IE won't even recognise it as a webpage!

Wait a second, that's not true.  Internet Explorer has broken support for XHTML, but it does support it.  And MIME type, I don't know what you're talking about - IE's incorrect support for XHTML is based on the DTD.

Here's a webpage of mine - XHTML Strict, CSS:
http://www.triple-bypass.net/brickpics/family-wagon/montana.htm

I just looked at it in IE for the very first time.  It renders the png wrong (another major complaint against IE), but otherwise, it performs correctly.

So I have no idea what you're talking about.  Please explain.

piratePenguin

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #69 on: 21 June 2006, 21:51 »
Quote from: worker201
Wait a second, that's not true.  Internet Explorer has broken support for XHTML, but it does support it.  And MIME type, I don't know what you're talking about - IE's incorrect support for XHTML is based on the DTD.

Here's a webpage of mine - XHTML Strict, CSS:
http://www.triple-bypass.net/brickpics/family-wagon/montana.htm

I just looked at it in IE for the very first time.  It renders the png wrong (another major complaint against IE), but otherwise, it performs correctly.

So I have no idea what you're talking about.  Please explain.
The MIME type describes the type of the document. Generally, for every request for a document off a web-server, the web-server sends back a Content-type header which contains the MIME type. If the MIME type is text/html, the web-browser knows to render the document as HTML. If the MIME type is image/svg+xml, the web-browser knows to render the document as SVG. If it's something like application/ogg (an OGG file) the web-browser won't be able to handle it so it'll ask the user what to do - to open it with an application or to save it to disk.

I see your web-page is sent as text/html. The W3C discourages sending XHTML documents as text/html -and encourage using application/xhtml+xml. See this note.

Your page is sent as text/html - since this is how web-browsers decide how to treat a document... they'll treat it like HTML (but this is where I get confused - because I know they generally use the HTML parser to parse the document, but other than that I haven't a clue). Even Firefox etc :(

Know the way XHTML, being XML, is strict about closing tags and all that? Remove a tag from your document and I bet the web-browser won't squeal like it's supposed to with XHTML.

I remember the first time I heard this, I had a page that a whole site would be based on written in XHTML and I was sending it as text/html, so I learned about this stuff and switched it to application/xhtml+xml (sometimes this is as simple as using a .xhtml file extension - depends on the web-server configuration) and IT FUCKING BROKE! I couldn't fix it - something to do with the body tag not being "special" anymore or something (I couldn't set the background image/colour IIRC), I can't remember the details.

But often it's alot more complex using proper XHTML than switching the MIME type. All the time your page was being treated as HTML - XHTML is far more strict than HTML (and it's not only the XMLness), so you could've been doing things wrong and never noticed.

You might want to consider (a) switching to HTML 4.01 (b) switching to application/xhtml+xml, perhaps telling IE users how crap their web-browser is via a simple HTML 4.01 page, or you could just leave it...

BTW your page doesn't validate ;)
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.triple-bypass.net%2Fbrickpics%2Ffamily-wagon%2Fmontana.htm
Looks like the validator's treating it as XHTML.
Those are pretty simple errors to fix.

http://hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
 - Noah And The Whale: Give a little love



a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

worker201

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #70 on: 21 June 2006, 22:40 »
Oops, how the hell did that get past me?  I swear I validated this page!

By the way, here's something else kinda interesting.  For some reason, I went to my page with SeaMonkey and saved a copy to my hard disk.  Then I tried to validate the saved copy via upload.  31 errors!  All the empty-tag slashes (like
) were gone, and so was the very first line - .

How crazy.

Canadian Lover

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #71 on: 22 June 2006, 00:59 »
This has gotton out of hand...

WMD

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #72 on: 22 June 2006, 19:56 »
Unbinned by request.

This'll probably go back in soon, but I think it still has some life left.
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Canadian Lover

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #73 on: 22 June 2006, 20:21 »
Quote from: WMD
Unbinned by request.

This'll probably go back in soon, but I think it still has some life left.

By whom?  :confused:

Canadian Lover

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Re: Firefox myths
« Reply #74 on: 23 June 2006, 01:28 »
Moron'd
(Aloone had his chance when he was last on an hour ago, and MT hasn't replied since this was unbinned)