Javascript to help IE users browsing your site.

[piratePenguin]

One of my favourite reads ever

[Aloone_Jonez]

Firefox, Opera, Konqueror, Safari. Some of the seriously advanced (standard) stuff aren't even supported by many of these generally-good (when it comes to standards) browsers, but if you're using seriously advanced stuff then obviously it's a seriously advanced page you're making - feel free to alert users that it won't be rendered, and feel free to refer them to FF/Opera/Konq/Safari or whatever good browser WILL render the page (if they're visiting the page, it should be safe to assume they want to see it. When you alert them they can make their minds up if they wanna install FF, install Opera, install GNU/Linux (for example) + Konquror or buy a Mac (so they can use Safari)).

The main point is if you want 90% of people to be able to view your page then don't do any advanced stuff most browsers won't work with as few people will change just to view your site, they'd rather go somewhere else.

I found a really good answer to the question "Why are standards so important?", from the dillo web site (lots of good (as in good) stuff on that site:

I agree standards are very important, in every aspect of technology, including hardware too.

BTW I used to use an extension that would persist Firefox. If the electricity went off, or something crashed, starting FF would just continue it like nothing happened. If I had the extension installed now and the power went off, once I run FF next time I'd still have my post infront of me. There is one problem that I heard about it though (never affected me though) - apparantly you can't install other extensions with it on (that's why I'm not installing it yet, until this is fixed).

Sounds handy, don't think even Opera supprts that, how about the contents of forms, if you were in the middle of typing a post would you loose it if the power went off?

One of my favourite reads ever

I'd rather not derail this thread so I'll be as brief as possible.

I found this article difficult to read he does bollock on a bit but none the less he does raises some valid points but I don't buy into all of them.

Like the economics of free software for example, he's obviosly thinking about operating systems and servers where the author can easilly make a profit on selling their services. However this doesn't transfer to other areas like computer games, (no one's going to play each level over and over until it's bug free) this is why open source software hasn't done very well in this area. I think free software is great but it isn't suitable for all business models, it depends on the type of software you're selling and the market you're aiming it at, saying there's only one way to do things is a very bad thing.

What about pattents?

We all bitch about software pattents but no one ever bitches about hardware pattents. From Stallman's point of view if you copy someone's invention and then start manufacturering it yourself you shouldn't be hurting them (I don't agree with this). There are serious implecations for hardware pattents, the main ones are storage media and protocol, it's the same principle, stopping the competing product interoperating with yours.

As far as I'm concerned pirating software is bad but it's not as bad as the companies say. Stealing software is like sneeking onto a bus or train or into a cinima or concert without paying or even watching cable TV with an illegal decoder, you're taking away their business.

[piratePenguin]

The main point is if you want 90% of people to be able to view your page then don't do any advanced stuff most browsers won't work with as few people will change just to view your site, they'd rather go somewhere else.

How can you create a web-based SVG editor without using advanced stuff?

I don't know of any other web-based SVG editor the viewers will go to.

I agree standards are very important, in every aspect of technology, including hardware too.

Well yes.

Sounds handy, don't think even Opera supprts that, how about the contents of forms, if you were in the middle of typing a post would you loose it if the power went off?

Nope IIRC.

[Aloone_Jonez]

How can you create a web-based SVG editor without using advanced stuff?

Are you talking about SVG support in browsers?
IE has a plugin, so does Firefox and Opera 9 has some SVG support too, I don't know how good it is though.

Back to the that Firefox extension you talked about:

If the electricity went off, or something crashed, starting FF would just continue it like nothing happened.

In what way does it return back to the way it was when the power went off?

If it's downloading then Opera supports it but if you're talking about tabs and forms then no browser I know of supports that. I mean if Opera were to crash now (which is unlikely since I don't think it's ever crashed on me before) then it would load as it did when I last started it but all the downloads would resume of course.

Talking of browsers I've just discovered another one, it's called Orca, I'm sure you've heard of Avant well, it's bascally the same thing but for the Gecko engine. I know you lot probably won't agree with it because of the license or the fact it's Windows only but it looks quite good, I think I'll try it, and if I like it then it might become my main Windows browser or I'll recommend it to Windows users.

[piratePenguin]

Are you talking about SVG support in browsers?

No, I'm talking about something like this (save support definetly possible, just not implemented fully).

IE has a plugin, so does Firefox and Opera 9 has some SVG support too, I don't know how good it is though.

FF has had a subset of SVG supported in 1.5 (they're improving it all the time). Opera 9's handling the basic SVG I've been feeding it.

Back to the that Firefox extension you talked about:


In what way does it return back to the way it was when the power went off?

If it's downloading then Opera supports it but if you're talking about tabs and forms then no browser I know of supports that. I mean if Opera were to crash now (which is unlikely since I don't think it's ever crashed on me before) then it would load as it did when I last started it but all the downloads would resume of course.

Can't find that fucking extension again, but IIRC it just saved basically everything (forms, tabs, the lot) every so often (very often) and loaded it when FF started again. Which is pretty shit because ya know the way u gotta restart FF to install/uninstall an extension? With that extension enabled you can't do either, so to get rid of it you gotta do it manually or remove your profile directory.

Talking of browsers I've just discovered another one, it's called Orca, I'm sure you've heard of Avant well, it's bascally the same thing but for the Gecko engine. I know you lot probably won't agree with it because of the license or the fact it's Windows only but it looks quite good, I think I'll try it, and if I like it then it might become my main Windows browser or I'll recommend it to Windows users.

Jesus I can't see anything it has on FF. Looks like FF has fucking loads on it though (the fact that it's free software being one big one).

Whenever I wanna edit video, I'll look at Cinelera and kino before any non-free software. If they do the job good enough, I'll stick with them. If you wanna browser, why wouldn't the free browser do the job? OK, in some areas it's not good, but in other's it's King (think extensions) - AND IT'S FREE SOFTWARE.

[piratePenguin]

Seeing as we're talking about browsers here I'll put this here.

I cannot believe what I read here.

Why aren

[Stryker]

I dislike the use of JavaScript, because you can disable it in the browser.

If you have PHP on your server, try this:

<?
$bladeraar = $_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'];
if(eregi("msie",$bladeraar) && !eregi("opera",$bladeraar))
{
echo("<meta http-equiv=\"refresh\" content=\"10;url=http://www.browsehappy.com/\" />");
}
elseif(eregi("mspie",$bladeraar) || eregi("pocket",$bladeraar))
{
echo("<meta http-equiv=\"refresh\" content=\"10;url=http://www.browsehappy.com/\" />");
}
else
{
echo("<meta http-equiv=\"refresh\" content=\"0;url=index2.php\" />");
}
?>

I dislike meta redirects because they're not instant and don't always work. If you're doing php, why not:

<?
$bladeraar = $_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'];
if(eregi("msie",$bladeraar) && !eregi("opera",$bladeraar))
{
header("location: http://www.browsehappy.com");
}
elseif(eregi("mspie",$bladeraar) || eregi("pocket",$bladeraar))
{
location:("location: http://www.browsehappy.com/");
}
else
{
header("location: index2.php");
}
?>

Of course, I hate that too, because it'd redirect to an "index2" and i hate those. Why not just include("checkie.php") at the top of every php file, that way, you can still have the content on the index page.


...just saying...

[Aloone_Jonez]

No, I'm talking about something like this (save support definetly possible, just not implemented fully).

I had a feeling you meant something like that but there again the only question I have to ask is why?

If I want to edit an SVG I'll use Inkscape rather than a horribly slow web based program - the performance of your program is unacceptable on my machine, MS Draw was much more featured and would run on my old 386.

[Refalm]

I dislike meta redirects because they're not instant and don't always work. If you're doing php, why not:

<?
$bladeraar = $_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'];
if(eregi("msie",$bladeraar) && !eregi("opera",$bladeraar))
{
header("location: http://www.browsehappy.com");
}
elseif(eregi("mspie",$bladeraar) || eregi("pocket",$bladeraar))
{
location:("location: http://www.browsehappy.com/");
}
else
{
header("location: index2.php");
}
?>

Of course, I hate that too, because it'd redirect to an "index2" and i hate those. Why not just include("checkie.php") at the top of every php file, that way, you can still have the content on the index page.


...just saying...

Well, on old PHP versions, sending headers didn't work if another script already send a header.
But yes, it's way better this way, because now the browser can't say no to being sent to another page (by disabling meta tags).

Also, I do not like individual PHP files, I like one that loads all pages from a database and/or text files.
I used this script for a corperate website. I had to use some IE tricks to make transparant PNG images work. Those tricks brake down images on other browsers, so I had to seperate pages.

But for the purpose, it's better to place this script on top the index page, and replace the redirect to index2.php to
echo("");

[piratePenguin]

I had a feeling you meant something like that but there again the only question I have to ask is why?

If I want to edit an SVG I'll use Inkscape rather than a horribly slow web based program - the performance of your program is unacceptable on my machine, MS Draw was much more featured and would run on my old 386.

It's noticibly faster on FF 1.5 than on Opera 9 on my machine. It's fast enough until you paint too much shit.

And it would be faster if snap wan't enabled by default (everytime you move the mouse over the canvas, the distance to each snappable_point (which could be hundreds - 2 for every line, 1 for every point, 4 for every rectangle, 2 for every freehand) is calculated and checked if it's less than 5 - everytime you move the mouse), but I'm keeping it enabled until I get the UI done (which might be a while) because it's far more fun with it on.

It will be useful e.g. to allow users to draw their own avators on a website. That's not why I started it though - I started it as a proof of concept and for educational purposes.

Well, on old PHP versions, sending headers didn't work if another script already send a header.
But yes, it's way better this way, because now the browser can't say no to being sent to another page (by disabling meta tags).

You can use output buffering (http://ie2.php.net/manual/en/function.ob-start.php, you can also enable it in php.ini with the output_buffering option) to get around that.

Before I discovered PHP's output buffering I used to write the document to a variable and echo it after any headers I might need to be sent are sent - messy.

[Aloone_Jonez]

It's noticibly faster on FF 1.5 than on Opera 9 on my machine. It's fast enough until you paint too much shit.

I haven't tried it on Opera 9, only Firefox 1.5 and it was too slow but your machine is probably much faster than my miserable 1800MHz box.

[piratePenguin]

I haven't tried it on Opera 9, only Firefox 1.5 and it was too slow but your machine is probably much faster than my miserable 1800MHz box.

I've a 2600+.

Try this crappy version (no snap, no cursor (main reason I added the cursor was for snap anyhow)):
http://piratepenguin.porteighty.org/javascript/draw/crappycomputer/index.xhtml

Even just resizing the window and drawing to a smaller area should be faster (on this machine, full screen, dragging a rectangle from the top left corner to the bottom right is slow).

[piratePenguin]

I found this article difficult to read he does bollock on a bit

Where exactly does he "bollock on a bit" ?

Like the economics of free software for example, he's obviosly thinking about operating systems and servers where the author can easilly make a profit on selling their services. However this doesn't transfer to other areas like computer games, (no one's going to play each level over and over until it's bug free) this is why open source software hasn't done very well in this area. I think free software is great but it isn't suitable for all business models, it depends on the type of software you're selling and the market you're aiming it at, saying there's only one way to do things is a very bad thing.

Well if you agree that for MOST software the developers could produce an income without being pissed off when I copy their software (game) for a friend, then that's a step up.

RE: game developers. If a revamp of copyright meant people can copy anything they want, always, - gamers would still need good games as much as they always have.  If the developers need money, then someone will have to GIVE it to them. The gamers. If the gamers want good games, they gotta donate to the developers. Otherwise they just probably won't get them.

Same goes for movies and everything else.

What about pattents?

We all bitch about software pattents but no one ever bitches about hardware pattents. From Stallman's point of view if you copy someone's invention and then start manufacturering it yourself you shouldn't be hurting them (I don't agree with this).

IMO, if someone depends on an IDEA they had, maybe ten years ago, for income, that's just not good enough. If you have a brilliant idea, say you find a method to produce free energy, I don't think anyone should be obliged to give you money to use it. Anyone should be able to use that method all they want - people in poverty in Africa, should be allowd to use it to dig holes for wells etc.

A friend of mine had a cool idea to put breathilizers in cars, so if you're over the alcolol limit it won't let you drive. To think the law would allow him to become the "owner" of it for so long and only him and other people he decides on can use it to save a few lifes - bullshit.

One thing I do like about patents is that all the copy-protection SHIT is being patented, and thus noone can use this SHIT without paying/asking/whatever.

As far as I'm concerned pirating software is bad but it's not as bad as the companies say. Stealing software is like sneeking onto a bus or train or into a cinima or concert without paying or even watching cable TV with an illegal decoder, you're taking away their business.

There are people that can't AFFORD to pay into a cinema (cinema's are a complete rip-off IMO, at least here they are).

[H_TeXMeX_H]

If only you could install Konqueror without KDE

[Orethrius]

Am I wicked for seeing Javascript to help IE users browsing your site. and immediately thinking "someone's made a drive-by-downloader that installs Firefox"?