Few questions about OS X...

[piratePenguin]

No, I want the company and platform to survive you retard.  What part of "OS X development is subsidized through hardware sales" don't you understand?  If they can position themselves to be like Microsoft and make money solely off the OS, I wouldn't mind that -- but it's not a reality, and won't be for a really long time.

1. release an intel version of OS X without the TPM checks.
2. offer them to Dell and the other big OEMs at special prices.
3. ...profit!

[bedouin]

Yeah, that worked out real well for BeOS.  

With your logic though, Apple should be happy making a measly $20 profit from Dell compared the large profit margin they currently make on hardware, which trickles down to an OS that Windows and Linux don't even get around to ripping off until five years later -- even with MS's massive R&D.

Not to mention, those profits keep the chain of cool hardware Apple produces flowing along smoothly; if it weren't for Apple we'd still probably be stuck in a paradigm of beige boxes and 20lbs laptops.

[obob]

i highly doubt that given that the majority of hardware development is fueled by Microsoft (gaming hardware, think Direct3D, which your beloved doesn't seem to support) which pushes cooling technology forward, which pushes case design forward

laptop design is pushed by a desire to have faster, more capble laptops, not to compete with Apple, Apple doesn't drive anything, Apple competes in mp3 player sales by making itself the "popular fad" for teenagers everywhere, and in hardware, it buys more or less the same hardware used in PC's

So, in short, you're saying that Apple is the reason the computer industry doesn't suck, I'm saying that Apple makes a very very very very small mark, it doesn't push IHV's to release more capable graphics hardware, it doesn't push IHV's to release more efficient hardware with higher performance standards, it doesn't push IHV's to invent new technologies to better utilize it, it actually complains when IHV's build anything related to it

You wanna argue Apple for advancing technology forwards, lets look at a few various roles that computers play:

HPC's, which are primarily built my HP, IBM, Cray, SGI, Sun, etc, Apple can't compete, these companies push the realm of hardware (and software) to the limit just to squeeze more power out of their systems

then lets move to laptops, Apple currently makes one of the most overpriced laptops on the market, oh wow, it runs OS X, so amazing *yawn* while you can buy the same Core Duo laptop from Sony, Lenovo, HP, etc, for considerably less, have more customizable options (and ZOMG I know that having a silver or blue or green laptop is such crap compared to Apple's AMAZINGLY UNIQUE ability to make AN ALL WHITE computer)

you wanna argue style, lets talk style, Apple has zero customizability, yeah you can "hack your mac" oh wow, that's so amazing, it's the same case and the same layout but it got painted an ew color (AMAZING)

seriously, they got nothing, they're overpriced, and just scream and complain if anyone tries to reduce that price...so yeah, i see your point, profit margins through screwing their customers, which might explain why they have so few customers in the first place (or the more logical assumption that it's just a bad idea in general to get a mac, and on that note, i love how a thread asking about mac turned into a flame war because someone wants to feel speshul for having an Apple)

[piratePenguin]

Yeah, that worked out real well for BeOS.  

With your logic though, Apple should be happy making a measly $20 profit from Dell compared the large profit margin they currently make on hardware, which trickles down to an OS that Windows and Linux don't even get around to ripping off until five years later -- even with MS's massive R&D.

Not to mention, those profits keep the chain of cool hardware Apple produces flowing along smoothly; if it weren't for Apple we'd still probably be stuck in a paradigm of beige boxes and 20lbs laptops.

Er, Apple could continue selling Macs and iPods and all their other products, believe it or not.

[worker201]

i highly doubt that given that the majority of hardware development is fueled by Microsoft (gaming hardware, think Direct3D, which your beloved doesn't seem to support) which pushes cooling technology forward, which pushes case design forward

laptop design is pushed by a desire to have faster, more capble laptops, not to compete with Apple, Apple doesn't drive anything, Apple competes in mp3 player sales by making itself the "popular fad" for teenagers everywhere, and in hardware, it buys more or less the same hardware used in PC's

So, in short, you're saying that Apple is the reason the computer industry doesn't suck, I'm saying that Apple makes a very very very very small mark, it doesn't push IHV's to release more capable graphics hardware, it doesn't push IHV's to release more efficient hardware with higher performance standards, it doesn't push IHV's to invent new technologies to better utilize it, it actually complains when IHV's build anything related to it

You wanna argue Apple for advancing technology forwards, lets look at a few various roles that computers play:

HPC's, which are primarily built my HP, IBM, Cray, SGI, Sun, etc, Apple can't compete, these companies push the realm of hardware (and software) to the limit just to squeeze more power out of their systems

then lets move to laptops, Apple currently makes one of the most overpriced laptops on the market, oh wow, it runs OS X, so amazing *yawn* while you can buy the same Core Duo laptop from Sony, Lenovo, HP, etc, for considerably less, have more customizable options (and ZOMG I know that having a silver or blue or green laptop is such crap compared to Apple's AMAZINGLY UNIQUE ability to make AN ALL WHITE computer)

you wanna argue style, lets talk style, Apple has zero customizability, yeah you can "hack your mac" oh wow, that's so amazing, it's the same case and the same layout but it got painted an ew color (AMAZING)

seriously, they got nothing, they're overpriced, and just scream and complain if anyone tries to reduce that price...so yeah, i see your point, profit margins through screwing their customers, which might explain why they have so few customers in the first place (or the more logical assumption that it's just a bad idea in general to get a mac, and on that note, i love how a thread asking about mac turned into a flame war because someone wants to feel speshul for having an Apple)

It seems like you've never owned a Mac.  Thus, you don't get it.  I can't explain it, but there IS a difference, and it pervades everything about the computer, from its packaging down to its core frameworks.  I can't truly say they are faster or more efficient or cheaper or less buggy or anything else.  But dammit, Apples are cooler, and there's no way to know that until you've had the FedEx guy knock on your door with a big box you have to sign for.

Honestly, Apple ownership is the closest thing I get on a daily basis to spirituality, and you cannot put a price tag on that.

[piratePenguin]

The switch to Intel killed the possibility of running Mac OS X on a custom-built computer.

I can run Ubuntu on a custom-built computer. I can run Windows on a custom-built computers.

And if owning a Mac brings you closer to spirituality than using a computer you built, then, wow.

And Macs are cool, but I haven't seen many different laptops or case designs from different companies, and I doubt Macs are undoubtedly the coolest things out there.

"cool" is relative too, btw.

[WMD]

i highly doubt that given that the majority of hardware development is fueled by Microsoft

Hardware development is pushed by games and, to a lesser extent, the Internet (server performance).

(gaming hardware, think Direct3D, which your beloved doesn't seem to support)

Direct3D is proprietary and can't be supported by anyone else but Microsoft.  Also, OpenGL (excuse me, Glide) predates D3D, and supports all platforms - which is the reason DirectX exists to begin with.

laptop design is pushed by a desire to have faster, more capble laptops, not to compete with Apple,

Considering that Apple was the first to have a lot of now-typical laptop things (keyboard towards the screen, trackpad, stereo sound, proper power management), I think you need to read up on laptop history.

Apple doesn't drive anything, Apple competes in mp3 player sales by making itself the "popular fad" for teenagers everywhere,

The iPod may be popular, but that doesn't change the fact that it had/has the best interface of any player, and the best integration between it and the computer.  The music store is ok too, but I don't like DRM.

and in hardware, it buys more or less the same hardware used in PC's

That wasn't always the case.  They started moving that way to make their computers less expensive and more open to develop for (need not make NuBus cards any more, etc).  True, the hardware is mostly the same now, but IBM wasn't too keen on helping out like they needed.   It was either switch or wait an ungodly amount of time.

So, in short, you're saying that Apple is the reason the computer industry doesn't suck, I'm saying that Apple makes a very very very very small mark, it doesn't push IHV's to release more capable graphics hardware, it doesn't push IHV's to release more efficient hardware with higher performance standards, it doesn't push IHV's to invent new technologies to better utilize it,

They don't need to do all that.  No single company does.  They make better out of all the stuff that otherwise exists.  By the way, WTF is "IHV"?

it actually complains when IHV's build anything related to it

As in....?

HPC's, which are primarily built my HP, IBM, Cray, SGI, Sun, etc, Apple can't compete, these companies push the realm of hardware (and software) to the limit just to squeeze more power out of their systems

Apple sells servers.  They aren't a huge name in that market, but they do quite well for themselves.

then lets move to laptops, Apple currently makes one of the most overpriced laptops on the market, oh wow, it runs OS X, so amazing *yawn* while you can buy the same Core Duo laptop from Sony, Lenovo, HP, etc, for considerably less,

I keep hearing it, but I never see it.  And no, they aren't "the same."  A MacBook Pro is not a ThinkPad is not a Vaio is not a Pavillion is not an Inspiron.

have more customizable options (and ZOMG I know that having a silver or blue or green laptop is such crap compared to Apple's AMAZINGLY UNIQUE ability to make AN ALL WHITE computer)

The MBP is aluminum colored :p hehehe

you wanna argue style, lets talk style, Apple has zero customizability, yeah you can "hack your mac" oh wow, that's so amazing, it's the same case and the same layout but it got painted an ew color (AMAZING)

What are you talking about?

seriously, they got nothing, they're overpriced, and just scream and complain if anyone tries to reduce that price...so yeah, i see your point, profit margins through screwing their customers,

Only if you are a foolish customer.  You don't have to pay full price for Apple hardware, just like with anyone else.  Investigate!

and on that note, i love how a thread asking about mac turned into a flame war because someone wants to feel speshul for having an Apple)

Nobody said anything stupid or flame-worthy until this part:

Alright, Apple moving to x86 is a reality, and it sounds like you're honestly saying that you want Apple to stay super proprietary and super closed in on itself (which it still is, for the most part) just so that it's an "elite membership" to have an Apple.

Oh, look, it's you!

It seems like you've never owned a Mac. Thus, you don't get it. I can't explain it, but there IS a difference, and it pervades everything about the computer, from its packaging down to its core frameworks. I can't truly say they are faster or more efficient or cheaper or less buggy or anything else. But dammit, Apples are cooler, and there's no way to know that until you've had the FedEx guy knock on your door with a big box you have to sign for.

Honestly, Apple ownership is the closest thing I get on a daily basis to spirituality, and you cannot put a price tag on that.

As crazy as all that sounds, I can kind of agree with you.  I can't explain it either.

[xyle_one]

...Honestly, Apple ownership is the closest thing I get on a daily basis to spirituality, and you cannot put a price tag on that.

Hahaha. I hate that I agree with this and understand.

[piratePenguin]

Of course Apple make the best laptops in the universe!

They're getting kinda cheap.

[bedouin]

i highly doubt that given that the majority of hardware development is fueled by Microsoft (gaming hardware, think Direct3D, which your beloved doesn't seem to support) which pushes cooling technology forward, which pushes case design forward

Right, which is why Microsoft was the first one to adopt USB, Firewire, make DVI (though in the form of an ADC adapter) standard on all machines, make wireless cards standard on laptops (back in 98 or 99 with the clamshell iBooks), kill off legacy interfaces and mediums (parallel and serial ports, floppies).  Not to mention other little things, like machines that can instantly wake from sleep and get more than 2 hours of battery life (I'm back in 98 still, mind you).  Who was the first company promoting the idea of home DVD creation, back in 2000 when PCs were still lucky to ship with a CD-RW?  Who was shipping their machines with widescreen LCDs five years ago, back when you were upgrading from a 15" CRT?  

Apple doesn't invent the latest and greatest technology, but they sure as hell as the first to use it when it becomes available.  There's other examples, but we don't have 20 pages.   You're right though, MS does fuel hardware sales; you need at least 3ghz+ to draw the latest security update pop-ups and wireless connection wizards (meanwhile OS X just joins a network for you, or present you with a nice pull-down menu), in a dazzling fade-in fashion.  That was worth the upgrade alone, wasn't it?

Apple doesn't drive anything, Apple competes in mp3 player sales by making itself the "popular fad" for teenagers everywhere

Apple and Sony are perhaps the only two manufactures advocating the idea that a machine can perform well and look good at the same time; they pay intricate detail to design in ways no one else does, which is exemplified by things like the latchless MacBooks, magsafe adapters, backlit keyboards, and a slew of other small features -- which PC laptops will steal within a few months.  I guess your memory is short as well, because the first 17" laptop was made by Apple.

So, in short, you're saying that Apple is the reason the computer industry doesn't suck, I'm saying that Apple makes a very very very very small mark,

No, I'm saying Apple is willing to take risks and bless its customers with the latest and greatest innovative ideas while your jaw still drops over the 10lbs Dell laptop for $499.  That's your forte; stick with it.

Don't be fooled; I'm a Mac user for OS X -- the pretty products are just an added bonus.  And yes, in my opinion OS X is the only OS out right now that doesn't suck in performing in a non-interferring manor and bringing new features to the table that I actually care about.

then lets move to laptops, Apple currently makes one of the most overpriced laptops on the market, oh wow, it runs OS X, so amazing *yawn* while you can buy the same Core Duo laptop from Sony, Lenovo, HP, etc, for considerably less, have more customizable options (and ZOMG I know that having a silver or blue or green laptop is such crap compared to Apple's AMAZINGLY UNIQUE ability to make AN ALL WHITE computer)

So we've established A) either you hate OS X or have never used it -- thus OS X is not important enough to legitimize the purchase of a Mac and that B) Well thought out design means very little to you and you're happy with a large, clunky HP laptop.  Also, feel free to price a machine comparative to Apple's current offerings -- not only in technical specifications, but in weight, battery life, features, and packed in software (iLife, to name one).  I doubt you will find a large difference, and this has been proven so many times in the past.  

you wanna argue style, lets talk style, Apple has zero customizability, yeah you can "hack your mac" oh wow, that's so amazing, it's the same case and the same layout but it got painted an ew color (AMAZING)

The only stock part in my PowerMac is the case and motherboard.  Throughout the years I've upgraded the video card, added a DVD writer, added a TV card, upgraded the CPU, added SATA, and a number of other traditional upgrades.  The machine was purchased in 2002 and thanks to its flexibility still performs comparable to some of the last PowerPC units Apple shipped (better in some cases).  

My MacBook's hard drive can be very easily swapped by removing a couple screws (the 7200 RPM upgrade seems tempting) and I've already maxed it out at 2gb of RAM.  I've taken apart my friend's Mini twice; you know the CPUs in those things are socketed right?  The only non-upgrable part in that budget machine is the graphics chip.

i see your point, profit margins through screwing their customers, which might explain why they have so few customers in the first place

Yeah, I feel so screwed -- getting a kick-ass OS that never gives me any problems and cool hardware.  The majority of the people shop at Wal-Mart and eat at McDonalds, I suppose that's the lifestyle I should be aiming for in your opinion right?  Then I can kick back, watch meaningless sitcoms and FOX news while I scratch my balls and jack off to porn on my $399 Dell Inspirion.  

Oh and in case you missed it, Apple's Macintosh market share soars 16 percent.

[obob]

Ok, where to start

A) OpenGL is NOT GLIDE, GLIDE was from 3dfx, a custom slimmed down implementation of MiniGL which was sliced down OpenGL, it was designed to run in hardware on the Voodoo chips as a performance increase (which was MASSIVE in the days of SST96)

B) GLIDE = 1997~, DIRECT3D = 1994~

C) Xserve isn't for sale anymore, at least that i've seen, additionally, the biggest servers are from Sun, Dell, HP, etc

D) also, in paying more, i expect non-proprietary crap, i expect stuff i can mod an upgrade, seriously, for $3000, i want total control of my system

now to bedouin
apple didn't invent all of those, they worked on a few, as far as being the most lightweight/performance, lets talk about Sharp and Fujitsu, which will kick the crap out of Apple in weight and in heatoutput

furthermore, Sony's computers look like crap, but lets consider a few others who worry about style:

Dell
Alienware
Falcon NW
SGI
Sun Microsystems
Voodoo PC

and then the case makers:
Lian-Li
Antec
Enermax
Asus
Gigabyte Tech

aditionally, lets talk about this 3GHZ+ need stuff, Intel's new Core 2 actually puts a faster processor than Apple is using in the hands of PC USERS! so Apple no longer has the more advanced hardware, also, DVI is worthless...and it mostly always has been (the quality advantage over VGA is nonexistent unless you're doing dual link, and the majority of cards released with DVI ports (except the multi-thousand dollar Quadro series) usually can't even meet the correct specifications of DVI bandwidth wise, because their TMDS isn't high enough quality)

non-Apple desktops offer more capability in terms of modding, upgrading, etc

In short, you guys are both arguing the stupidest points, mostly because your both wrong...

BTW
you can look up IHV for yourself

[piratePenguin]

[offtopic]Something I read recently (which makes sense to me) (since someone said something about Macs being first to get USB (which I know has nothing to do with USB2)):

Linux, said Kroah-Hartman answering the charge, supports more devices out of the box than any other operating system ever has. Linux is often even ahead of the pack, being the first operating system to implement both USB2 and bluetooth.

http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/07/23/1212252[/offtopic]

[piratePenguin]

BTW
you can look up IHV for yourself

Independent hardware vendor

that took a whole 4 seconds!

[bedouin]

C) Xserve isn't for sale anymore, at least that i've seen, additionally, the biggest servers are from Sun, Dell, HP, etc

Please step away from the keyboard.

D) also, in paying more, i expect non-proprietary crap, i expect stuff i can mod an upgrade, seriously, for $3000, i want total control of my system

See previous post where I speak of all the upgrades done and possible with my Macs and others.

apple didn't invent all of those, they worked on a few

Work on your reading comprehension.  See previous post where I stated pretty clearly that Apple is one of the leading early adopters, not inventors.

furthermore, Sony's computers look like crap, but lets consider a few others who worry about style:

You mentioned style with Dell, Alienware, and VooDoo PC in the same sentence -- just stop.

DVI is worthless...and it mostly always has been (the quality advantage over VGA is nonexistent unless you're doing dual link

Thanks for shooting your credibility to even less than zero.  I had a Dell 24" Widescreen display attached to a Mac Mini via VGA and a PowerMac via DVI and the difference hurt my eyes.  If you can't tell the difference you need an eye exam.

[H_TeXMeX_H]

Of course Apple make the best laptops in the universe!

They're getting kinda cheap.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about ... Apple makes items that are overpriced, overrated, and pretty crappy (low actual value of product, high percieved value by many customers)

another example is the iPod nano screens scratching even if you touch them ... fucking ridiculous

Or are we supposed to be real careful with their shitty ... I mean "sensitive" equipment.

Apple = bunch of cheap pussies !