Author Topic: Windows XP Service Pack 2 Build 2082  (Read 7510 times)

hm_murdock

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« Reply #75 on: 12 August 2004, 04:28 »
quote:
What made you switch to PC?


Not the OS or the hardware. It was Apple, the company. If you think that MS is "evil", then you should look at Apple. They expect you to buy a new machine every year to run the recent upgrade of their OS!

BTW, "jihad" is an Arabic term, from the Quoran meaning "holy war".
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Aloone_Jonez

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« Reply #76 on: 12 August 2004, 05:05 »
After installing SP2 after it taking nearly 24 hours to download on my shitty 5k/second connection, everything is well,  it seems to be good open office seems to run a bit faster. Windows took a bit longer to boot up the first time as it still needed to finish the installation, but even after a reboot it still took a bit longer, I rebooted again and it got faster, this is an example of the pre-emptive booting feature in action. I would say that overall SP2 has been a sucess.

Linux vs Windows driver support.
I was arguing that when hardware companies don't provide details of their products to Linux driver developers it often results in semi-functional drivers. When I mean semi-functional I don't mean bad as in system fucking up bad, I mean it works but some of the important features are missing, for example a graphics driver that doesn't support the hardware accelerator. Bad Linux drivers are often closed source and the company doesn't put the same amount of time and effort into their Linux driver as most people use Windows.

Open source Linux drivers where the manufacture has either released their hardware details or written the driver themselves, are often better than Windows drivers due to the usual open source advantages that you are all aware of.

Windows drivers are normally quite good, MS releases most of the Windows API, I would dare say that they're too honest and also release all the exploits and bugs too. MS' monopoly position forces manufactures to write drivers for Windows and as they want to keep their market share the quality of the driver is as important as the hardware. There is no reason why any manufacture would release good Mac drivers and poor Windows drivers. I would suspect that this situation is more likely the other way round, because of MS' monopoly they would be more likely to spend more time developing Windows drivers.

Oh, as I mentioned hidden APIs:
Often some APIs are hidden because they are only called by Windows, and if MS published them and developers used them, it would screw up compatibility even more, as they might not be used by future Windows versions. If MS released them it would mean that they would have to be included in all future versions, thus creating more bloat and legacy code problems.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mac OS X has hidden APIs and functions. You have a look at the instruction set for the 8086 and many of it's successors and you will find many
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

hm_murdock

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« Reply #77 on: 12 August 2004, 06:02 »
OS X will never come to x86 PC because it would kill Apple's hardware sales. While they sell more iPods by volume than Macs, they still make a much higher profit on computers than they do MP3 players.
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WMD

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« Reply #78 on: 12 August 2004, 06:06 »
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder:
Not the OS or the hardware. It was Apple, the company. If you think that MS is "evil", then you should look at Apple. They expect you to buy a new machine every year to run the recent upgrade of their OS!


This seems odd to me.  A lot of people talk about how OS X keeps getting faster.  You're the only person I hear saying it gets slower.

I think your iMac just sucks or something.  I mean, a G3 500mhz machine with no fan...  :D  Just kidding.  ;)
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hm_murdock

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« Reply #79 on: 12 August 2004, 06:08 »
but it has convection cooling :-D
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WMD

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« Reply #80 on: 12 August 2004, 06:11 »
You mean like the Apple II?  
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bedouin

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« Reply #81 on: 12 August 2004, 06:23 »
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder:
Not the OS or the hardware. It was Apple, the company. If you think that MS is "evil", then you should look at Apple. They expect you to buy a new machine every year to run the recent upgrade of their OS!

BTW, "jihad" is an Arabic term, from the Quoran meaning "holy war".



OS X 10.3 officially runs on any G3 with built-in USB; it unofficially runs on any G3, or machine with a G3 upgrade card with help from XPostFacto.  So the very first iMac, which is six years old now, can officially run Panther.  Will it be the most pleasurable experience?  Perhaps not, but neither is Windows XP on a PC from 1998.  

My PowerMac is over two years old, and has gone from 10.1 > 10.2 > 10.3, getting faster with each upgrade; it will probably last a couple more years with comfortable performance, though I plan to upgrade the CPU soon.  I wouldn't be surprised if this machine is still usable for another four years.  Likewise, my G3 iBook is doing just fine.

If anything, Macs have a history of NOT requiring extensive upgrades to run the latest software.  OS X, and the switch from old to new-world put a slight kink in that pattern, but it was necessary.  Your claim is largely FUD.

And Jihad is not Arabic for holy war, it just means struggle.  The word itself predates the time that Islam even entered Arabia, or there could be anything 'holy' applied to it (the areas was filled with pagans before Islam).

Stilly

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« Reply #82 on: 12 August 2004, 07:48 »
i would expect tiger to be faster on a g3 after that big lawsuit against apple.
just say know

insomnia

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« Reply #83 on: 12 August 2004, 08:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by Sauron / B0B:
Solaris, your logic in this debate is wrong.

You have not provided any new information at all, which changes this from debate to argument/flamewar.

your logic is: If X is true and Y is in the same class as X, then Y is true, e.g.    you can see where this logic falters.




So far, I have never seen a single post you made that didn't make you look like complete noob.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    Voltaire

Injustice is happening now; suffering is happening now. We have choices to make now. To insist on absolute certainty before starting to apply ethics to life decisions is a way of choosing to be amoral.
R. Stallman

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hm_murdock

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« Reply #84 on: 12 August 2004, 21:00 »
quote:
Your claim is largely FUD.


Sure, it's "FUD", whatever you say, buddy boy. After all, you didn't sink $1200 into a Mac, after being promised "full support by 10.1" only to learn that AltiVec was the dividing line between first-class and second-class citizen.

Sorry, but I remember the promise of "Rhapsody for all PCI Power Macs". Hell, I remember the promises of Copland for all Power Macs.

I felt disappointed, felt that I'd been ripped off by Apple, and that my computer had been depreciated faster than it should have been.

I'm sorry if I pissed you off by the fact that I felt let down. I apologize if I don't worship the ground that Steve Jobs walks on.

It's my damn choice, and my reasons. If my personal feelings are "FUD", then I have an idea for you...

Fuck off.
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WMD

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« Reply #85 on: 12 August 2004, 21:57 »
But the thing is, still - how did OS X get slower for you when it got faster for so many others?  Like bedouin's Power Mac from 2 years ago has gotten faster with each release.  What is your machine missing?

 
quote:
Sorry, but I remember the promise of "Rhapsody for all PCI Power Macs". Hell, I remember the promises of Copland for all Power Macs.

Why does that matter so much to you?  The first Power Mac came out in 1995, why would an OS from 2001-2003 run on that?  Especially from Apple, with their love of GUI and nothing else.

Your machine is from 2001...it probably has some feature missing that's killing it.
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bedouin

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« Reply #86 on: 12 August 2004, 10:56 »
quote:
Sure, it's "FUD", whatever you say, buddy boy. After all, you didn't sink $1200 into a Mac, after being promised "full support by 10.1" only to learn that AltiVec was the dividing line between first-class and second-class citizen.


Before I begin let's have a look at your original post, where you stated that Apple, "[expects] you to buy a new machine every year to run the recent upgrade of their OS!"

Throughout Apple's history they've tended to support machines for a reasonable amount of time.  Machines like the IIx (manufactured in 1988) can run up to OS 7.5 (released in I believe 1995).  That's a machine supported with an up to date OS for about 7 years; not bad.  Or take the Quadra 700, a 68k machine released in 1991, that supports up to OS 8.1 (released in 1998).  So that machine (and similar models) were supported for 7 years as well, and during a major architectural shift from 68k to PPC -- when Apple could have easily abandoned them.

Your claim, as interpreted by most, is that Apple releases OS updates and then forces its users to purchase new hardware, on a regular (you claimed yearly) basis.  Something any seasoned Mac user knows is untrue.  

Now, if you're upset because your early G3 system was partially supported by early versions of OS X, then perhaps you should have stated that, and not exaggerated your claims beyond it.  

And for the record, I have an 800mhz G4 and an 800mhz G3 machine.  For most tasks I notice no difference between the two, so AltiVec is hardly the dividing line between first-class and second-class citizens.  There's plenty of people perfectly happy with OS X on their B&W G3s.  

   
quote:
Sorry, but I remember the promise of "Rhapsody for all PCI Power Macs". Hell, I remember the promises of Copland for all Power Macs.


The shift from classic to OS X was drastic.  In those days MacOS was beginning to lag behind even Windows.  Big changes had to be made, and they also had to be made fast (Windows 2000 was around the corner; NT already existed).  It's unfortunate that some machines did not receive full support during this transition, but it was necessary due to time constraints and a lack of resources.  Apple may have made promises, but I'm doubtful that even they realized the exact path they were going to take with OS X -- Rhapsody and Copland are just prime examples of that.  In the end, if scrapping complete support for a few machines meant a quality OS, then it was worth it.  

 
quote:
I felt disappointed, felt that I'd been ripped off by Apple, and that my computer had been depreciated faster than it should have been.


Just to clear this up for non-Mac users who may not know: There's a group of G3 Macs (beige PowerMacs, clamshell iBooks, iMacs, and early PowerBooks) manufactured between 1997 and 1999 that did not have hardware DVD playback, or graphics acceleration in OS X.  That meant to watch a DVD you'd need to boot into OS 9, and that Aqua was a bit sluggish on machines with only 2MB of VRAM.  Put this into perspective though: a PC from 1997-98 with 2MB of onboard video and a low mhz rating probably wouldn't make a great XP machine either.  I think it's unrealistic to expect Apple to completely support some of these machines in OS X.

[ August 12, 2004: Message edited by: bedouin ]


bedouin

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« Reply #87 on: 12 August 2004, 11:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by WMD:
But the thing is, still - how did OS X get slower for you when it got faster for so many others?  Like bedouin's Power Mac from 2 years ago has gotten faster with each release.  What is your machine missing?


It's missing a decent graphics card.  If the Mac he owns/owned is the original iMac, it had anywhere from 2-6 MB of video ram -- which given OS X's intense GUI, no amount of driver hacking can really make speedy.  On top of that, the machine has a 266mhz CPU and a 66mhz bus.  The beige G3s had similar problems, however you can upgrade the graphics card and CPU in those.

In all likelihood his machine would continue to get faster with each OS X update, but not as noticeably as one with a reasonable graphics card (since it can't take advantage of Quartz Extreme, which requires at least 16MB of video ram).

 
quote:
Your machine is from 2001...it probably has some feature missing that's killing it.


You hit the nail on the head basically.  But some people feel they were promised speedy OS X machines, when in reality I'm not sure that they were promised anything more than a machine capable of eventually running OS X, which they do.

Since Apple users are used to getting years out of their hardware, the shift from OS 9 to OS X took a lot of people by surprise.  It's really a case of evolution, and I don't think Apple planned to screw anybody over.

[ August 12, 2004: Message edited by: bedouin ]


WMD

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« Reply #88 on: 12 August 2004, 11:24 »
quote:
On top of that, the machine has a 266mhz CPU and a 66mhz bus.

Jimmy's iMac is 500Mhz.
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hm_murdock

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« Reply #89 on: 12 August 2004, 11:26 »
quote:
Throughout Apple's history


There you go... in the past. This is not the past. I still run my 7200 with OS 9.1... the OS released SEVEN YEARS after the machine.

As for my machine? It's hardly an "early G3"...

iMac Summer 2001 500MHz
Rage 128 Pro AGP4x graphics
1GB RAM

I also ran an 800MHz G4 (Quicksilver) until I sold it to buy a G5 (WORST MISTAKE EVER). The G4 was plenty pokey.

Let me point out that neither machine was *slow* in OS X. The UI was quite, quite pokey, though. Even with QE enabled on the G4 it was slow.

The G5 was unusually laggy, as well. Seems very telling.

Let me point out to you that I was a fan of OPENSTEP before anybody ever dreamed of Rhapsody, and I know how quick it was. The only real change with OS X was Quartz. The OS itself certainly didn't get slower.

And since the release of OS X, Apple has held graphics over our head like the 6th grade bully holding the candy that he stole from the 2nd grader way over his head. Then, when the crappy little free apps started requiring a 500MHz G4, and then a 1GHz G4... things got absurd.

In the last year, Apple has IMHO, gotten BAD. Yeah, they're just tryin' to make a buck, but here's their take on doing that from my point of view.

Get people to buy a Mac. Milk 'em for all they're worth before they realize that next month's software won't run on the computer they bought last month. Repeat process.

Before the end of the year, I plan on having me another Mac. Will it be new? No. Will I run OS X? Probably. Will I run Tiger? Probably not. I bought Jaguar and Panther. I'm not about to shell out again. I'll wait for the next release.

If it runs on the hardware I get.
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