Serious question for WIN advocates

[creedon]

Why do you think that posting to this forum about the advantages of any Microsoft Operating System is going to change the mind of one member of this forum, and get them to change back. Isn't it kind of like a religious argument?  I mean, look at it objectively, we've chosen to use a different OS; how does that affect you in the slightest?  My personal reasons for using Linux have nothing to do with the system itself; mine are philisopical reasons: I don't like Microsoft Inc.  The only way I would ever support MS would be if they went open source.  Conversely, right now, I'm using WIN98 SE (a copy I PAID for, Thank You) for reasons that are my own; I could, however, re-boot and use any of my Debian installs (that I, again, PAID for).  I choose to no longer support a corporation that uses what appear to me to be unethical, immoral, coersive business methods.
Is Linux a better OS, fuctionally?  Yeah, I guess so.  Is the Linux philosophy superior to Microsoft, Inc.?  Positively, I won't participate in the activities of a company whose behavior sickens me.
Don't bother telling me how technically superior Windows is, you're just wasting bandwidth; that argument means less than nothing to me, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who supports any product of Microsoft, Inc. is morally bankrupt.

[www.unixsucks.com]

I just thought that we would get truth out of this message thread.
I hoped that somebody from *NIX fans would show how wrong I'm about Windows and how it UNIX blows away Windows.
I really want to know why I would want to choose *NIX architecture over Microsoft? What technical advantage would it give to me?
So far, my first thread has been closed and I got a ton of dirt from *NIX fans but nothing constructive.
As far as I understand this is not *NIX support forum (look at site name) so I though it would be appropriate to ask questions which I ask. I don't consider Windows to be a religion which a lot *NIX fans think about their OS. I do question things and want to know the truth. But I did not get any so far.
So again, why from technical stand point of view I would want to choose *NIX?

[neo_x500]

Youwant to know why Linux is better than windows, because survey    after survey shows that windows is more vulnerable to viruses and crackers than even the least secure version of UNIX. From a moral stand point Microsoft is evil, the only reason they are where they are today is because they cheated and lied to get there. And from a cost stand point, linux is cheaper to buy and maintain than any Microsoft system. On you site you really should address how corrupt microsoft is, otherwise you are just as bad as the so called Unix worshipers. Anyone can ignore facts, like you say we are doing, but you also are ignoring important facts about microsoft.

[voidmain]

There are many reasons to change to *NIX, there are many reasons to change to MacOS, there are many reasons to change to any operating system besides Windows.  That's what this site is for. Now, fortunately you have a choice, you can get a copy of Linux for free, install it, learn it, change it, explore ways to do things that you can do in Windows, and ways to do things you can't do in Windows.  

It's not going to give you immediate satisfaction if you have only used Windows all of your life.  It takes commitment to learning. In every case that I have found, people who have made that commitment and put forth the effort, never have the slightest itch to go back. Now you may decide that it isn't for you or you don't want to invest the time and you will continue to pay the M$ tax. Maybe you are afraid of learning something new and liking it?

Anyone here would be more than happy to help you out if you have any questions.

[www.unixsucks.com]

Well. As I said in my website I did install Linux (SlackWare), I did install Solaris and I do use *NIX on daily basis for DNS stuff.
I never claimed to be *NIX expert as you claim to be in M$ systems so I guess there are some things which you can do there which you can't in Windows (though I still has not got any examples, though I just rememebered one - I can boot from CD, edit paswd file and become root).
So I have Linux and Windows on the same plate. Why do I choose Linux? Is it easier to administer? Is faster? Does it support more hardware/software? The only thing which I can see and I do give it to Linux is the price. You can not beat that.
In fact I do love *NIX for doing some things like using dig, nslookup, host, telnet, ssh etc. Other then that I don't see much point for me to move away from Windows.
What you said last time about flat domain structure of NT and AD and incompatibility is completely untrue so please don't make waves.

Greg

[voidmain]

Oh, so you are telling me that M$ still supports Windows NT?  It wasn't that long ago that we got our entire corporation migrated entirely to NT and NT domain structure, then they dropped support for NT4 and now they tell us we should switch to AD which causes an "upgrade" to Windows 2000, that we didn't "need".  How long will that support last?  

Now they come out with Licensing 6.0, oh I get to pay M$ every year for stuff that I don't need.  Why do I have to upgrade Office every year? Why do I need to upgrade to Office 95 when Office 6.0 did everything I needed.  Why do I now have to upgrade to Office 97 when Office 95 was working so well for me? Why do I need to upgrade to Office 2000 when Office 97 did everything I needed. Why do I need to upgrade to Office XP when Office 2000 was working so well for me. Why  Because M$ is a corporate money sucking machine and they intentionally produce software that is intended to make it nearly impossible to stick with previous versions, then increase the price exponentially.  

Do you realize how much this costs us to upgrade every time M$ farts out a new product on a 6,000 node network?  If their products are so good, then why do I need to "upgrade" so often?  Sounds like there must be major room for improvement.  Do you think XP is where it all ends?  Now they have the "perfect" OS?  Heh heh, it'll be obsolote in a year or two. .NET?  No thanks. From day one M$ has built their money train on being incompatible not only with other operating systems, but with their own. Not by accident, and not for technical reasons. The reasons are pure greed.

Why is it that I have to purchase virus software for all machines on my corporate network and virus software for all of my Exchange servers, which only stops the "known" viruses by the way?  Why is it that Microsoft after how many years of pumping out operating systems still hasn't been able to lick that "little" problem of being massively susceptible to viruses, not only in their operating systems but within their applications?  I frankly have better things to do with my time than constantly wiping out viruses and recovering from a Melissa or I-LOVE-YOU variant.

Now, I want to write an application in VB or C++.  Hmmm, I don't find a compiler included with my operating system.  What?  I have to pay for development tools which are going to create applications that will help further the spread of Windows?  Nah, I'll pick an OS that comes with all the development tools imaginable.

Now I want to build a database driven web server. Hmm, I have to buy a copy of Win2K and SQL Server and what is this going to set me back for licensing to have an Internet connected SQL Server that anybody on earth can connect to?  Nah, I think I'll pick an OS where all of this stuff is included, and at no charge.

Hmmm, I don't like the way this application works because of this simple little item.  Hmmm, if only I had the source code I could change it. What? No source code? Nah, I'll stick with an Open system.

It seems you have an extremely small taste of UNIX by using DNS.  Now why don't you take a few more steps and try some other things. Maybe get a copy of RedHat 7.3 and buy a book or two (not that they are necessary with all of the information on-line).

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[www.unixsucks.com]

Well again I'm not analyzing TCO of owning Windows and *NIX. I was talking purely from technical aspects.
.NET Framework comes with compilers for c# and VB.NET, you can have Perl.NET as well. And it's free. Of course you can buy VS.NET but it's optional.
Can you explain me why would I want to explore more of *NIX?
So say I have business out there which wants simplicity and power at the same time. I would install Win2000, and use it for all their needs. it would serve well and it would take me 1 day at most to install it. Do I think I sound unreasonable?
Why would I want to spend 3 weeks on learning *NIX and then would achieve exactly the same result? What would be the advantage for me or for that business? Even if I would learn how to do the same stuff on *NIX in 3 weeks, how much time would it take me to teach some semi-educated admin at that business to learn *NIX, another half a year?

[voidmain]

Believe me, it will take you longer than 3 weeks to become proficient, just as it took you longer than 3 weeks to become proficient with M$ products. In fact 99% of all MCSEs I have ever met I wouldn't consider proficient with M$ operating systems. TCO is a *major* factor in selecting a product, you can't ignore it.  And I could put forth the same questions to you about Windows that you put to me about *NIX or more specifically Linux.  Why should I put forth the effort when Linux does everything I need? And then on top of it, have to pay for it, not only once, but for every machine I want to install Windows on, and then have to pay for upgrades once a year?

I have a side business where I do exactly what you are with Windows.  I install Linux servers for companies. Most of my business comes from replacing Microsoft NT/2K/IIS servers with Linux/Apache.  I also install Linux servers as a front-end to Microsoft exchange servers to do things like block viral attachments and spam.  I also install Linux based network monitoring/paging servers that report the health of networks and servers (including M$ servers, UNIX servers, mainframes, etc), Linux based IDS (intrusion detection systems), install/configure/support firewalls and Cisco routers.

Now you may find this hard to believe but we also provide trouble-shooting support for NT, 2K, Metaframe, and Citrix servers/networks.  I am finding that when there is an equal or better Linux solution people are turning to it.  Not only is the TCO lower, but it is easier on both them and me.  More customizable, no licensing hassles, no visits from the Microsoft auditors, lower TCO, life is good.  And every day Microsoft becomes less and less relevent.  Maybe you should start learning so you still have a job in a few years (unless you prefer to flip burgers, but the world needs burger flippers).

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[www.unixsucks.com]

I have not said that it would take me 3 weeks to become proficient (read postings properly), I said that it would take me 3 weeks to install all *NIX workshop as opposed to Windows.
I don't see any data supporting that Windows loosing ground so I'm not sure why would you think that I would be unemployed. You have exactly the same chances as me.
So do we agree that from tecnnical standpoint of view there is no advantage of using *NIX, if not then please gimme examples.
And to that dumbass which posted article before here who told that his c++ program runs 3x faster on Linux then on Windows. Please give me some credit about my IQ. Even without being even close technical I would make assumption that all programs written for Linux are 3x faster then the same one for Windows since c++ performs 3x better there. Do you have any prove for ANY commercial product? I have - www.tpc.org, go and find you *NIXes there.

[voidmain]

I have not said that it would take me 3 weeks to become proficient (read postings properly), I said that it would take me 3 weeks to install all *NIX workshop as opposed to Windows.

Now you are just being silly. I can do from scratch Linux installs 10 times faster than you can install a Windows shop. And for say 2 servers, and 50 clients from scratch it would take less than a day.

I don't see any data supporting that Windows loosing ground so I'm not sure why would you think that I would be unemployed.

Then you are blind and haven't been keeping up with the news....

You have exactly the same chances as me.

Not quite, you are only proficient in Windows (even that is up in the air). I am equally proficient in both Windows and *NIX (Linux, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, BSD). So I say that gives me an advantage.

So do we agree that from tecnnical standpoint of view there is no advantage of using *NIX, if not then please gimme examples.

Now why would I agree to something so outrageous as that? Windows has never come even close to being as robust as UNIX. Well, it get's a little closer every time they steal more BSD code for their operating system, but the gap is still bigger than the Grand Canyon. Read back through some of the old posts on this forum. I hate to repeat myself.

And to that dumbass which posted article before here who told that his c++ program runs 3x faster on Linux then on Windows. Please give me some credit about my IQ. Even without being even close technical I would make assumption that all programs written for Linux are 3x faster then the same one for Windows since c++ performs 3x better there.

Now I would agree with you there (no offence X11). Using equal hardware, equal compilers, equal optimizations they should be roughly the same speed, depending on the nature of the task, of course I could always write a program that was intentionally biased:

Code: [Select]

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[www.unixsucks.com]

Why would not you just tell what is that *NIX do which Windows can not instead of pointing to different direction each time?
Obviously you disagree that from technical standpoint is on par with Windows.
Please tell me specifics, I would really like to know.

[voidmain]

Automation is far easier in UNIX. Development in UNIX is far easier and doesn't require the installation of other software. Administration is far easier in UNIX. Remote administration and use of UNIX is as easy as local administration and use. If I don't like the way an app works, I have the power to modify it for my specific needs. I can read my email without fear of getting a virus that will gather up all of my personal documents and send them out to all my friends.  Or worse, delete everything on every network share I have permissions to, followed by deleting everything on my local hard drive. I can check my operating system for back doors, can you say the same? I can download a CD containing my operating system and install it on as many computers as I like legally, no questions asked, can you?

If I want to optimize my kernel and every application on my system to my specific processor and hardware I can. My operating system will run on many architectures (x86, PPC, Sparc, RISC, Alpha, Mainframe, and on and on and on).  So I am comfortable with operation from the bottom of the line x86 to mainframes.  With Windows I'm locked in to one architecture. I have a choice of many GUI environments available and included so I can pick the one *I* prefer, many productivity apps available and included.  It can interoperate easily with damn near every other operating system out there, unlike Windows which only interacts with itself, and then half assed. I can go on for hours, but I don't see the need.

Oh, and did I mention it's free?  Why don't you give it a spin?  Might I suggest one of the first things you look at is "shell programming". It certainly isn't necessary for a "user" of UNIX but it is where you will begin to see the power of UNIX and the limitations of Windows. I am confident that if you become familiar with that, you'll be well on your way to the point of no return.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[www.unixsucks.com]

So this was your points???!!!!!
That's pretty weak I must admit, I though you have something up in your sleve which you would use but you have nothing!
Administration of UNIX is easier?! What you've been smoking? How you going to install printer on client machine in UNIX as opposed to double clicking icon in Windows?
Development is easier? Remember what came first ASP or PHP. Is c++ is easier then VB?
You can read your email without getting virus? I can also! What a surprise.
You can have different desktops?! What is advantage of that for Christ's sake!
And what you said about interoperability? There is such thing as Services for UNIX which would allow you to sync password, mount NFS shares and bunch of other things, there NetWare gateway and client, there is AppleTalk gateway, there is print services for UNIX. I don't think you really realise that being uneducated and inproficient in Windows I can possibly know all that things.
Just don't tell me that it's all you have! It's really weak.

P.S. To people who gave me 1 star in my profile. Do you REALLY think that I care?

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: http://www.unixsucks.com ]

[voidmain]

I am not here to convince you which is better, I already know which is enough for me.  On the other hand if you are willing to open up your mind a little I would be more than happy to help you learn for yourself.  When you have put forth the effort you can make your own conclusions.  

Maybe it will not be the best solution for you for everything you do, but maybe it will be a better solution for you in some of the things you do. And maybe it will save you some money and help improve your productivity in certain areas.  You certainly will be more intelligent when it comes to your arguments.  Who knows, maybe you will even start to like it, but that thought probably scares you too much.

Now, since you already have convinced yourself why are you here?  I don't go to your BBS and tell you how much Windows sucks.  I don't go to http://www.windowsbbs.com/ and make fun of all of the idiots over there.  That would be trolling, something I don't have time for, and something you appear to be doing here. Now it would give me great pleasure if you go back to your BBS and spew all the UNIX drivel you care to. If you want to learn more about UNIX, I will help you but you have to take the first step.

[badkarma]

quote:Originally posted by www.unixsucks.com:
P.S. To people who gave me 1 star in my profile. Do you REALLY think that I care?

obviously you do, else you wouldn't have mentioned it.....