The revolution begins...

[hm_murdock]

correction on that last post... around 800MB for the  OS install

update: GenSTEP Alpha.One in about ten days.

Here's what's included
Komodo Core AP1 (build 19)
X.org
Current GNUstep
Window Maker
GWorkspace

Not an awful lot, but we'll be improving things quickly after that. Once we get Alpha.One out, then we'll see Komodo Core AP2, which will include an improved hardware detection system, many of the Komodo services, and other high-level Komodo components. When it's done, then GenSTEP Alpha.Two is released and work continues on Komodo Core. I don't know how much work Will wants to complete before we reach the point where Komodo is ready to be wrapped up, but when that's nearing completion, we will release GenSTEP Developer Preview One: Black.

Some of the Komodo services include...

- GraphicsService
Handles fast-user-switching and 3d window manipulation/alpha translucency. Yup that's right, via this baby and Metisse, we have a graphics system definitely rivaling Windows and almost rivaling OS X. The fast-user-switching is a side effect of using Metisse. See Metisse uses a kind of "dummy server" called Xwnc. Apps connect to this Xwnc and "Ametista" which is Metisse's OpenGL window renderer takes the window pixmaps and draws them in the main X server (X.org). If you terminate Ametista, Xwnc still runs. Therefore, we can keep these dummy Xwncs running for each user we want logged in. The allocation of Xwnc's is handled by GraphicsService.

- MsgService
Provides a mail-like IPC service. Applications register identities to utilize the service. To request an identity's "mail", you must supply the proper password that the app gave at registration too. I only put security in places I knew it would be hard to implement at the app level. For instance you can probably spoof messages and that's the fun of it. No application should use this for mission-critical communication anyway right now. The spoofing part I'm sure will spawn little apps that manipulate other apps which is a plus for Komodo.

- DialogService
This is a simple one. It shows messages on the screen.

- LogService
Reports activity to the system/user logs.

- ErrorService
ErrorService uses DialogService and LogService to report errors. It also acts a Solution repository. Solutions are small data structures that solve a problem causing an exception in a Marble application. All exceptions in Marble applications are solvable. ErrorService can query these solutions from online sources. Ad-hoc bugfixing!

- MountService
Handles disk/image mounting very simply. You just give it the source device/file and the destination directory and it does it for you.

- mDnsService
This one is in progress still. It provides our own Rendezvous service which we call Vergos for the owner of the Rendezvous restaurant in Memphis.

- HardwareService
This one is also in progress. Once I upgrade to a 2.6 kernel and get it to work I'll be able to expose HAL through this bad boy.

[ July 19, 2004: Message edited by: JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder ]

[Aloone_Jonez]

800MB - That's acceptable I suppose.

How much RAM will you need?
Most people I know, who aren't computer wizz-kidz use their PC just for word-processing have just 64MB.

I hope it can be set-up an configured to run on a 5 year old machine.

Read the first paragraph: http://www.microsuck.com/content/whatsbad.shtml

How about hardware support and troubleshooting?

I assume that hardware support will be the same as any other Linux distribution.

But How about troubleshooting?

If I am testing out a new driver for my vidio card and it fucks up.

Will it do what XP does and revert back to the previous driver?

It could also do what older versions of windows do and boot into safe mode and use a generic VGA driver.

I hope it won't do what Windows 3.1 and Redhat Linux does, and you have to edit some shitty configuration file or restore it from a backup copy to get the GUI back.

I don't bitch about Linux just to piss you lot off!

I criticize Linux with the hope that someone will listen and will not only help me, but try to make Linux better too.

Now this would be cool:
Imagine a central server that all distributions of Linux can download drivers from.
No fuss.
No bother.
No need to search the Internet at all.
All you do is install your hardware, boot your machine and Linux will detect your new hardware and offer to connect to a certified server and download a driver bundle and configure it for you, if the driver is not available from this server, you will be linked you up to one that has the driver, if this fails it will say

[Aloone_Jonez]

Oh and another good thing about XP is that the configuration is journalled.

If you install something or by your own stupidity you fuck the registry up, you can restore it to how it was, an hour ago, yesterday or even last week if you wish.

[insomnia]

quote:Originally posted by Aloone:

I don't bitch about Linux just to piss you lot off!

Indeed, you probably do this cause you don't understand anything about it.

They've ripped you with your computer.
It's crap.
I've installed Linux on more than 100 computers and I never had to deal with that much hardware problems.
Blame your computer shop.

Ps: Just give it some time and read as much as possible. Try to understand Linux and not only the GUI.
 

[ July 19, 2004: Message edited by: insomnia ]

[KernelPanic]

quote:Originally posted by JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder:

- MsgService
Provides a mail-like IPC service. Applications register identities to utilize the service. To request an identity's "mail", you must supply the proper password that the app gave at registration too. I only put security in places I knew it would be hard to implement at the app level. For instance you can probably spoof messages and that's the fun of it. No application should use this for mission-critical communication anyway right now. The spoofing part I'm sure will spawn little apps that manipulate other apps which is a plus for Komodo.

Could I ask what the point of that is?
You seem to be reinventing several wheels
  :rolleyes:

[Aloone_Jonez]

quote:Originally posted by insomnia:


Indeed, you probably do this cause you don't understand anything about it.

I would like to learn a lot more about Linux, but I already know enough to know what I dislike.

     

quote:Originally posted by insomnia:


They've ripped you with your computer.
It's crap.
I've installed Linux on more than 100 computers and I never had to deal with that much hardware problems.
Blame your computer shop.

XP runs ok, not as well as I would like it to though, yesterday just as my brother was logging on XP completely froze, no BSOD, nothing, it just locked up, the mouse cursor wouldn't even move.

     

quote:Originally posted by insomnia:

Ps: Just give it some time and read as much as possible.

Yes I will.

     

quote:Originally posted by insomnia:

Try to understand Linux and not only the GUI.            

I know there is more to Linux than the GUI, most people don't use anthing else but the GUI. I (unlike most Windows users) know the DOS command line, it's not hard to use if you know all the commands and some Linux commands are similar to DOS.

The command line user interface should have long gone, GUIs are the future. A GUI doesn't need to be big a resource hog, it is possible to design a very good GUI that uses up way less than 1MB of memory.

The command line should just be there to fall back on in case the GUI fails. Text based operating systems are still good for file servers and batch data processing systems, but they are useless for any process that requires a lot of human intervention.

I know I have my concerns, but this Komodo and GenSTEP shit looks very promising, I like the easy customisation of system directories and software bundles.

           keep up the good work!

[ July 20, 2004: Message edited by: Aloone ]

[hm_murdock]

quote:it is possible to design a very good GUI that uses up way less than 1MB of memory.

already been done. it's called twm.

why are you so obsessed with absurdly small things? are you trying to run Linux on a 386 or something?

 

quote:easy customisation of system directories and software bundles.

well... it's not necessarily customizable. the mark of any good system is a consistent user experience... there are no "options" for system folder names.

[ July 20, 2004: Message edited by: JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder ]

[Aloone_Jonez]

quote: already been done. it's called twm.

A Window manager is hardly a full GUI.

 

quote:  why are you so obsessed with absurdly small things? are you trying to run Linux on a 386 or something?

No, I just think that modern operating systems guzzle resources. Most people don't upgrade every 2 years, and as time passes people will upgrade less often. A decent (non bloated OS) shouldn't be the main strain of system resources.

1MB was a bit extreem, but it should be useble on a 64MB system.

 

quote: well... it's not necessarily customizable. the mark of any good system is a consistent user experience... there are no "options" for system folder names.

I agree, lets get rid of that Linux system folder abomination.

I know I don't expect you read all of my rambleing.

How about the other issues I raised?

How about hardware and troubleshooting?

I hope you don't have to do any command line shit to set up the system, regardless of your hardware?

Lets colapse the command line, like MS ditched DOS.

[flap]

quote:Lets colapse the command line, like MS ditched DOS.

Microsoft crippled the command line in windows to keep its users stupid. If technically adept people (particularly system administrators) realised how powerful the unix command line is, they wouldn't go back to windows.

[Aloone_Jonez]

quote:Originally posted by flap:


Microsoft crippled the command line in windows to keep its users stupid. If technically adept people (particularly system administrators) realised how powerful the unix command line is, they wouldn't go back to windows.

Yes, sorry, the command line does have it's place.
This is a main criticism I have with NT and Windows in general.

All versions before Win95 used the DOS kernel to allocate memory. Win95 provided DPMI which slowed things down a lot, they should have just rewritten DOS to be 32bit.

Also every new feature was always implemented in Windows and never in DOS, if the just added it to the DOS that Windows runs on, it would be a lot better. They used separate drivers for dos and windows, if dos was 32bit the same drivers could be used.

NT should also have a DOS like commandline without the need to load the GUI.

MS should have never ditched DOS completely, they should have just made it unnecessary for normal people to know it.

The same should happen in Linux!

The command line should be there just in case the GUI goes down, and for vary rare ocasions where it is more efficient to use the command line.

[hm_murdock]

Windows 95 did not use DPMI. it's Win32, not "32 bit DOS"

[flap]

quote:The command line should be there just in case the GUI goes down, and for vary rare ocasions where it is more efficient to use the command line.

Most non-interactive tasks can be accomplished far more quickly and efficiently using the command line, if you know what you're doing.

[Aloone_Jonez]

quote:Originally posted by JimmyJames: GenSTEP Founder:
Windows 95 did not use DPMI. it's Win32, not "32 bit DOS"

Win32 included DPMI and it worked on the same principle:
File access was all buffered back to DOS, and it included DPMI like memory allocation, you still needed HIMEM.SYS to load windows. You could run 32bit console programs like NASM for Windows, there was even a program that would stub a DPMI subsystem onto these so they can run under plain DOS.

Anyway you haven't answered any of my other questions Jimmy.

[hm_murdock]

Win32, dude. Not Win32s.

Even Windows for Workgroups used a native Windows protected mode for some things.

[insomnia]

quote:A Window manager is hardly a full GUI.

Euhm... why?
You don't even need it to have full GUI.
X is all you need.

 

quote:No, I just think that modern operating systems guzzle resources. Most people don't upgrade every 2 years, and as time passes people will upgrade less often. A decent (non bloated OS) shouldn't be the main strain of system resources.

That's why a command line should be even more integrated in any GUI.
A GUI itself is bloat.

 

quote:  but it should be useble on a 64MB system

It is.

 

quote:The same should happen in Linux!

The command line should be there just in case the GUI goes down, and for vary rare ocasions where it is more efficient to use the command line.

That same thing is what made Windows even worse.
If this would happen with Linux, I'd drop it and start using BSD.

What you seem to want is GUI build in the kernel.
That must be the worsed idea ever.
Do you really think any Linux user would like this.

[ July 20, 2004: Message edited by: insomnia ]