"The Apple Eradication Society forums?"

[flap]

quote:Originally posted by Panos:
The Webmaster of this page must be a prophet or something. Take a look at what's burried inside the main page's HTML code:

Code: [Select]

    :confused:        :confused:        :eek:        :eek:  

No offense of course to more logical and open-minded people like Calum for example and many others who know who they are. Needless to say that I agree.      

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ][/b]

That suggests the webmaster doesn't understand why the "irrational elements of the Linux community" dislike Microsoft, and it indicates that the reasons he dislikes them and favours Apple are primarily practical; for example because OSX is better software than Windows. That's undoubtedly true, but if Windows were free software I would without hesitation support it over OSX.
For him to denigrate people who demand freedom and label them "rabid" is a shame really.

[Pantso]

quote:
That suggests the webmaster doesn't understand why the "irrational elements of the Linux community" dislike Microsoft, and it indicates that the reasons he dislikes them and favours Apple are primarily practical; for example because OSX is better software than Windows. That's undoubtedly true, but if Windows were free software I would without hesitation support it over OSX.
For him to denigrate people who demand freedom and label them "rabid" is a shame really.

I would like to see you respond point to point like Faust did on my previous post as well as psyjax's. Let me remind you that I run a whole site about free and open source software and that I also donate to the FSF. Now, go on read my other post as well and respond.

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]

[Calum]

i agree totally with the webmaster's comments all except for the inference that linux users dislike macs.

i think that just shows an example of the tendency of macintosh users (and apple computer) to create a rivalry where there is none. perhaps mac users have always felt a rivalry with microsoft or intel, and now, because they know those companies have lost their dynamism and are not as much fun to be rivals to, they turn on linux.

who knows why? but there is nobody on this world who will convince me that this pathetic mac vs linux thing was not started by apple computer and perpetuated by macintosh users (some, not all).

no offence intended, i had a lot more to say but panos, psyjax and faust largely covered it all already.

[Pantso]

quote:Originally posted by Calum: crusader for peace & freedom:
i agree totally with the webmaster's comments all except for the inference that linux users dislike macs.

i think that just shows an example of the tendency of macintosh users (and apple computer) to create a rivalry where there is none. perhaps mac users have always felt a rivalry with microsoft or intel, and now, because they know those companies have lost their dynamism and are not as much fun to be rivals to, they turn on linux.

who knows why? but there is nobody on this world who will convince me that this pathetic mac vs linux thing was not started by apple computer and perpetuated by macintosh users (some, not all).

no offence intended, i had a lot more to say but panos, psyjax and faust largely covered it all already.

I really don't feel any hatred towards Linux users, as I'm one of them myself and have been for six years. I can recognize the benefits of Linux as well as the benefits of OS X. Sorry if I offended anyone. I'll stay in the forums of course as long as we stay focused on battling M$.

[Faust]

[contrite]Psyjax valid points, most covered already in my reply to panos[/contrite]
actually whats *not* covered is your response to 5 and following from that 6 which i think are good (sorry Panos but better than yours... :-P  ) arguments. some form of "mac emulator" made by apple would be a nice gesture of aide though.    
re : kde/gnome suck bit.  yes they do.  this is why i use blackbox / enlightenment which I personally prefer to the Mac GUI.  (not an attack - each to their own yeah?)  the only thing i miss is a centralised "system control" part and that can be compensated for with webmin / linuxconf.
if it can be added to a menu then why do i "need" to use a terminal? Linux is not stuck back in the pre-gui days so please dont spread FUD.
to reiterate i am not "jealous" of the Mac GUI.  I wish it all the respect it deserves of course, but I still like my own GUI's

at the end of the day its an ideological issue i guess which brings it close to religion which makes arguments on the topic "messy."  my apologies to anyone i've offended - i believe Mac OSX is good, but I also believe it would be made "better" and would be more "ideal" if it was fully GPL.  Maybe my young age makes me a hopeless idealist and your old age makes you all cynical and well... "realistic."
you obviously belive differently to me but the difference is slight and this is supposed to be an MS bashing forum so truce?

EDIT : actually re the mac GUI - most of it I'm not overly fond of but I do like the fact that it runs in openGL.

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Faust ]

[Pantso]

quote:Originally posted by Faust:
[contrite]Psyjax valid points, most covered already in my reply to panos[/contrite]
actually whats *not* covered is your response to 5 and following from that 6 which i think are good (sorry Panos but better than yours... :-P  ) arguments. some form of "mac emulator" made by apple would be a nice gesture of aide though.    
re : kde/gnome suck bit.  yes they do.  this is why i use blackbox / enlightenment which I personally prefer to the Mac GUI.  (not an attack - each to their own yeah?)  the only thing i miss is a centralised "system control" part and that can be compensated for with webmin / linuxconf.
if it can be added to a menu then why do i "need" to use a terminal? Linux is not stuck back in the pre-gui days so please dont spread FUD.
to reiterate i am not "jealous" of the Mac GUI.  I wish it all the respect it deserves of course, but I still like my own GUI's

at the end of the day its an ideological issue i guess which brings it close to religion which makes arguments on the topic "messy."  my apologies to anyone i've offended - i believe Mac OSX is good, but I also believe it would be made "better" and would be more "ideal" if it was fully GPL.  Maybe my young age makes me a hopeless idealist and your old age makes you all cynical and well... "realistic."
you obviously belive differently to me but the difference is slight and this is supposed to be an MS bashing forum so truce?

Truce indeed.     There are certainly bigger (and scarier) issues the world is facing nowadays, that such debates become almost funny. Sorry about the language thing Faust. I certainly have more things to say but English is not my first language so..  

[flap]

quote:Originally posted by Panos:


I would like to see you respond point to point like Faust did on my previous post as well as psyjax's. Let me remind you that I run a whole site about free and open source software and that I also donate to the FSF. Now, go on read my other post as well and respond.

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]

 

quote:Before answering, let me just say that I do not in any way support proprietary software. I wish everything was GPL'ed but above all I'm trying to be realistic.

But later on you say:

 

quote:Can you imagine what would happen if Apple released that or Aqua's code or Quartz's?

Are you saying here that you specifically *do* support their not making it free software?

I'm not saying that you can't be pleased to see Apple making forays into free software projects (or *useful* open source projects), if that's what they're doing. Though that seems unlikely. Safari is free because they needed to use software from the FS community to build it, not because they want to make a contribution to our community. And as we've seen, although Darwin is open source, it's not really any use to anyone because it's to restrictively licenced and it isn't the whole OS that's open anyway. If, as you seem to think, this is just the first step in 'opening up' or freeing more or all of their software then great, but I doubt it is.

And even if you are happy with Apple's work on open source projects, it doesn't mean you can't criticise them for not going far enough, or at least not be fully satisfied with how far they have gone. Don't forget that MS now has some GPL'd software, so should we be commending them for that?

 

quote:2. I disagree there. Apple is a corporation, meaning that they're trying to sell. I don't see anything wrong there. The same thing could be done amongst Linux vendors who have in the past and are still competed and competing against each other.

3. I also disagree. Thanks to the hard work invested by Apple's software engineers into Darwin, as well as the close cooperation between the latter and BSD developers has brought positive results as well as improvements on both and will continue to do so.

4. Oh, it is and Safari is already a big step towards that direction. The rumoured arrival of iWorks and the arrival of Keynote, will have a great impact on M$'s profits.

I don't agree with Faust's points there and I don't have any problem with them competing fairly either.

 

quote:5. Again I urge you to present me a case of violation of the GPL, LGPL and other FSF licenses.

He wasn't suggesting that they have actually violated FSF licences (and I wouldn't suggest that either), merely that they've done nothing more than they're bound to by law.

Psyjax:

 

quote:It's only natural that they should do it bigger and better agian. And I honestly thing linux/*NIX users are a bit jeulous, and salivate over the Aqua source, because KDE/Gnome do not work nearly as well, and Mac users only need the terminal when they WANT to use it. Not when the HAVE to.

To suggest we're jealous is a bit of a childish argument. I've never touched OSX so have absolutely no idea how good Aqua is, though by all accounts it's excellent, and I have no reason to think otherwise. I also couldn't care less (personally I prefer the terminal and only reach for the mouse when I want to, not when I have to.) What I resent is the arrogance of Apple thinking "Aqua is so good, it doesn't need to be free software. People will happily trade their freedom for a piece of software that works well."

[psyjax]

quote:Originally posted by flap:


To suggest we're jealous is a bit of a childish argument. I've never touched OSX so have absolutely no idea how good Aqua is, though by all accounts it's excellent, and I have no reason to think otherwise. I also couldn't care less (personally I prefer the terminal and only reach for the mouse when I want to, not when I have to.) What I resent is the arrogance of Apple thinking "Aqua is so good, it doesn't need to be free software. People will happily trade their freedom for a piece of software that works well."

Your right, I apologize about my first remark.

But I don't think buying proprietary software trades in your freedom. Not when your buying it from a good company.

I mean, seriously folks? Whats wrong with a GOOD product. That's the real complaint.

What if M$ actually made a great OS, that WAS better or at least as good as all the other alternatives? What if they were a nice player, and didnt piss all over competition in a bid to get ahead?

There woulden't be any complaints from me, Id prolly be happily using windows.

I don't mind giving Apple my money because personaly I think they DESERVE it. They made an excellent product, that pleases me greatly and outshines everything else I have used including the free alternatives.

I see no problem with this, and I am not trading in my freedom. Because I don't have to buy it. I also don't have to abide by any draconian EULA like M$.

[flap]

quote:I don't think buying proprietary software trades in your freedom.

Yes it does. You've just paid for the privilege of being legally forced to refuse to help someone who asks you to give them a copy of that software. And you're forced to run code that you have no way of finding out what it does, or changing it.

 

quote:I don't mind giving Apple my money because personaly I think they DESERVE it.

If you're referring to the question of making their software "free", then that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not you pay them for it. Free as in freedom etc...

[psyjax]

quote:Originally posted by flap:


If you're referring to the question of making their software "free", then that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not you pay them for it. Free as in freedom etc...

But you see thats all well and good, but source code IS the software.

It's not like a cake company who gives you a list of ingredients, cuz you wanna know whats in the cake, or how to go about makeing one. That's why you pay someone else for the cake.

Code is not just a list of ingredients. It's the actual product. Why shouldent you be allowd to sell it?

If I write a book, can't I make money off it? OR should everyone be able to photocopy it and proliferate it without me seeing a penny?

I mean, altruism is all well and good, but comeon, it only goes so far.

[flap]

Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood what I was saying. The free in free software refers to freedom, not price, so there is no reason at all why Apple shouldn't sell their software and the source that goes with it.

If you write a book or a piece of software, you should be able to sell it for as much or as little as you want, but you shouldn't be able to stop the people who get hold of it copying it themselves.

[Pantso]

Hey flap, will you ever get a life? Oops, I forgot. You're English.

[flap]

Why are you racially abusing me for supporting free software? You run a site called The Free Software Support Group for christ's sake.

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: flap ]

[Pantso]

quote:Originally posted by flap:
Oh you lunatic. Why are you racially abusing me for supporting free software? You run a site called The Free Software Support Group for christ's sake.

This was not a racial abuse! Sheesh! Will you relax for a second? I was just joking there! Where is your bloody sense of humour? All I was trying to say is that it's time to quit this thing and put an end. Looks though that you people don't have any intention to do so. I wanted to post this just to clarify that my post above was not by any chance abusive!

Peace,
Panos.        

EDIT: Let's be serious now. You really are an intelligent person flap. Thanks also for noticing the site. If you read through the first lines on the main page, you'd notice that we're looking for articles from people like you. So, instead of "wasting your breath" in these forums, why not write an article for example on how you think that Apple harms the Free Software community? If you would be willing to write one I'd really be honoured. If not, well life goes on. Post here or PM me in either case. Thanks.  

[ April 15, 2003: Message edited by: Panos ]

[cahult]

Here we are, with our hands at each other