Disgusting attitude.

[HibbeeBoy]

LA Times business section quote 3 people about the M$ settlement. "Microsoft is everywhere, why bother fighting it ?", "A waste of time and our tax dollars" and so it goes on. What can you do with these people ?
Plus that fuckwit Tom Arnold was on Tech TV saying how cool the Windows media player was.

Anyway, I had a Dell sales rep in here hawking his wares. I said I would love to do business with you. Can you sell me a machine either loaded with Linux or nothing at all ? "No." he says, "we are not allowed to sell machines without an OS". "Fine," I says, "just load them with Linux". "Can't do that, we have to install windows". I then ask him if he realises how ridiculous that sounds and say "That's unfortunate, as there is a local retailer here that will build me a PC to my specifications and he can deliver without installing an OS. Let me show you the way out."

[Crunchy(Cracked)Butter]

Can't IBM sell computers without windows?  Were they stupid enough to make deals like this with MS with regards to software?

[Zombie9920]

quote:Originally posted by HibbeeBoy:
[QB]LA Times business section quote 3 people about the M$ settlement. "Microsoft is everywhere, why bother fighting it ?", "A waste of time and our tax dollars" and so it goes on. What can you do with these people ?
Plus that fuckwit Tom Arnold was on Tech TV saying how cool the Windows media player was.

Wow, some people do have common sense. I get sick of tax money being used to fight MS. I PAY TAXES...I would rather my tax money be used for stuff like fixing the roads in my city, and other stuff that will actually benefit society rather than have it all get pissed away in the courts fighting a company who helps innovate the rapid groth in x86 technology(If Linux was the top dawg OS we would all still have 166mhz machines with non-accelerated video and audio). MS is a giant, thier software is popular all over the world and there is really nothing that can be done to stop them from dominating the software market.

I have to agree with Tom Arnold. Windows Media Player 9 Corona on Windows XP is the shit. Ever since I downloaded it I find myself using other media players like Winamp less and less. WMP 9 can do everything. I really like the way the full screen video controls work and I like the taskbar player alot. I also like how you can use WMP 9 as an internet browser(if you don't feel like having a bunch of Windows open). I like WMP 9's TruBass, WoW Effects and speaker enhancement capabilites. I have yet to see a media player that can do everything that WMP 9 can do.

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]

[Bazoukas]

Zombie why dont you shut your mouth already?

MS is abusive. Do we have to paint you a fucking diagram to get it?

  I also pay fucking taxes, and I dont mind one fucking bit that MS is chased by lawyers.

 For fucks sake already.

[Zombie9920]

quote:Originally posted by bazoukas:
Zombie why dont you shut your mouth already?

MS is abusive. Do we have to paint you a fucking diagram to get it?

  I also pay fucking taxes, and I dont mind one fucking bit that MS is chased by lawyers.

 For fucks sake already.

You don't mind it because you are Anti-MS and you feel that the courts can do what Open Source software and no other company can do.....bring down the giant.

Seriously, this country has way more important stuff that the tax money should be spent on than pissing it away fighting a software company.

It is bull that tax money gets wasted on non-important stuff before it gets used for society benefiting stuff. The Amercian government needs to get thier priorities straight.

[Bazoukas]

Yes there are more important things going on right now. I do agree.

  But in this case we are talking about violations that involve millions and millions of dollars.


   I dont know how you want YOUR America to be, but I sure dont want my country (USA) to have a one track mind, and forget about everything else.

   Or maybe you are one of those who just love corporate America so much, that you are willing to bend over for them all the time.


 Oh and dont call me a socialist, or a communist, just to start a flame war. I am a capitalist, not because I think its perfect, but because it suits us well with so much shit for brains we humans have.

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: bazoukas ]

[rtgwbmsr]

Before we start a war on political ideologies, let me give you the "Two cows" example:

Feudalism - You have two cows. The lord takes some of the milk.

Socialism

[Bazoukas]

"Capitalism - You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull."  


 . I liked the last one.

[emh]

quote:
MS is a giant, thier software is popular all over the world and there is really nothing that can be done to stop them from dominating the software market.

So in other words, you don't mind Microsoft forcing computer companies to sell Windows and promote their software only?  You don't mind Microsoft forcing computers to become obsolete just because they say so?  You don't mind having one company call all the shots in computer design, web browsing, office software, and other areas?  Microsoft is one huge illegal monopoly.  If their software truly was the greatest, why do they feel the need to force Dell, HP, Gateway, etc. to sell computers with Windows, MS Office, and IE installed?  If their software truly was the greatest, why do they have to make things like Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player essential to the operating system?  Seems to be that it would have been far less trouble to just write them as separate applications.  This anti-trust settlement was about preserving fair competition in the computer industry, not about going after a large company just because they were successful.  Not everybody wants to use MS Office, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, among other things.  This suit was brought about to make sure choice remains in the marketplace.  If we allow Microsoft to be the only choice, we might as well be in the Soviet Union.

[mobrien_12]

The Dell representative didn't know what he was talking about.  Yes, they do have to sell the system with an OS.  No, they cannot sell it with Linux.

But they CAN sell it with FreeDOS.

Perhaps this guys supervisor would like to know just how little his employee knows about Dell.

[Zombie9920]

quote:Originally posted by emh:


So in other words, you don't mind Microsoft forcing computer companies to sell Windows and promote their software only?  You don't mind Microsoft forcing computers to become obsolete just because they say so?  You don't mind having one company call all the shots in computer design, web browsing, office software, and other areas?  Microsoft is one huge illegal monopoly.  If their software truly was the greatest, why do they feel the need to force Dell, HP, Gateway, etc. to sell computers with Windows, MS Office, and IE installed?  If their software truly was the greatest, why do they have to make things like Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player essential to the operating system?  Seems to be that it would have been far less trouble to just write them as separate applications.  This anti-trust settlement was about preserving fair competition in the computer industry, not about going after a large company just because they were successful.  Not everybody wants to use MS Office, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, among other things.  This suit was brought about to make sure choice remains in the marketplace.  If we allow Microsoft to be the only choice, we might as well be in the Soviet Union.

Having IE and WMP intergrated into the OS is a great idea if you ask me. Take for instance..compare Windows 98 to Win95 without IE4+plus the desktop enhancement. Without IE Windows 95 can't use gif, jpeg, jpg, png, etc. as a Wallpaper(it can only render bitmaps). Without IE you don't have those nifty lil back and forward navigation buttons for surfing Windows explorer, without IE you can't enable single clicking to open files, without IE you can't add wallpapers to different folder Window backgrounds, without IE you can't have an active desktop wallpaper(say for instance you want to have a news site or even something like this forum as your wallpaper you can see the updates, new news, new posts, etc. from your desktop). IE enhances Explorers' rendering capabilites big time. Don't most distros of Linux come with Konquerer and Mozilla? That is bundling a browser(s) with the OS too, so why don't you bitch about it? Doesn't KDE 3 use Konquerer as an explorer(like Windows+IE)? That is making the browser an intergrated part of the GUI...why don't you bitch about that?

WMP being intergrated into the OS allows for you to play music from folders without even having to open the full media player. Also, if you have tried WMP 9 on XP and Win9x/2K you would see that the enhancements that XP gives to Media Player from having it binded into the OS make it a much better product. In Win9x/2K you can't play quicktime media, VCD's, SVCDs, DVDs with WMP9 out of the box(you have to install extra codecs), you can't minimize WMP 9 to the taskbar and use it as a taskbar player in pre-Windows XP OSes. The taskbar player is an example of what can be accomplished when the software is part of the OS...it is binded to everything in the OS..even the taskbar and the taskbar player is the result of that intergration. Personally, I really like the taskbar player too because it is always there for the clicking no matter how many windows you have open and it doesn't clutter the desktop. If you have video playing in the taskbar player the little video Window always stays on top making it easy to watch videos and do other stuff at the same time. WMP looks terrible in Win9x/Win2K too(the XP skinning engine makes WMP 9 look alot cleaner and more modern). Don't most Linux distros come with XMMS installed by default...that is bundling a Media Player with the OS....why don't you bitch about that since it is soo bad?

I think the intergration is fine. It isn't like MS stops you from running other browsers and media players. If you are really worried about losing a whole 15MB of space from those apps being installed you need a larger hard drive.          

Apple bundles Apple software with thier Mac OSes..why don't people bitch about that? You guys complain about shit that every other OS maker does. MS makes the Windows OS so MS has the right to bundle whatever MS software with thier OS that they want to bundle.

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]

[HibbeeBoy]

Zombie, the anti-trust is perhaps a waste of tax dollars as the stranglehold of M$ will be loosened anyway. The monopoly exists because M$ have forced companies like Dell into agreements to supply Windows XP or whatever whether the consumer wants it or not. That is just wrong. I wanted to buy a Dell PC but I didn't want a Windows OS but that is the only OS they will load, I have to pay for something I am not going to use. That is absurd, although this type of "service" exists elsewhere e.g. cable, I pay $x for 25 channels, 7 of the channels are non english. Anyway, I digress. More fool on the manufacturer for getting into bed with M$ so closely. It just shows how the masses are blindly following the Windows mantra and most of this is due to the retailers not offering the consumer a choice. I'm sure if Fry's put as many Linux boxes on display side by side with XP and a $300.00 price difference, the consumer would vote with their wallet.
Like I am going to listen to a dick like Tom Arnold on what leading edge technology is. I'd sooner take advice on picking up chicks from Beavis and Butthead.  

[Zombie9920]

quote:Originally posted by HibbeeBoy:
Zombie, the anti-trust is perhaps a waste of tax dollars as the stranglehold of M$ will be loosened anyway. The monopoly exists because M$ have forced companies like Dell into agreements to supply Windows XP or whatever whether the consumer wants it or not. That is just wrong. I wanted to buy a Dell PC but I didn't want a Windows OS but that is the only OS they will load, I have to pay for something I am not going to use. That is absurd, although this type of "service" exists elsewhere e.g. cable, I pay $x for 25 channels, 7 of the channels are non english. Anyway, I digress. More fool on the manufacturer for getting into bed with M$ so closely. It just shows how the masses are blindly following the Windows mantra and most of this is due to the retailers not offering the consumer a choice. I'm sure if Fry's put as many Linux boxes on display side by side with XP and a $300.00 price difference, the consumer would vote with their wallet.
Like I am going to listen to a dick like Tom Arnold on what leading edge technology is. I'd sooner take advice on picking up chicks from Beavis and Butthead.      

I agree that you shouldn't have to buy Windows with a new PC if you don't want Windows. Complaining about that is very understandable.

Complaining about software being bundled with an OS is absurd. The software company makes the OS so they have the right to include whatever in the fuck they want to include. If they are including software from other companies they would need valid permission to bundle it first of course..but MS doesn't do that because they make thier make thier own software. I know you weren't the one complaining about the software bundling so I'm not referring to anything you said and I'm not calling you irrational. ;P

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]

[Doctor V]

quote:Originally posted by Zombie9920:


I agree that you shouldn't have to buy Windows with a new PC if you don't want Windows. Complaining about that is very understandable.

Complaining about software being bundled with an OS is absurd. The software company makes the OS so they have the right to include whatever in the fuck they want to include. If they are including software from other companies they would need valid permission to bundle it first of course..but MS doesn't do that because they make thier make thier own software. I know you weren't the one complaining about the software bundling so I'm not referring to anything you said and I'm not calling you irrational. ;P

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]

Your absolutely right Zombie, an OS maker should be able to include whatever software they want to with their OS.  And a computer manufacturer should also be able to control what software comes with the computer they sell.        If they want to sell a comp with windows and Moz instead of Windows and IE, they should be allowed to do that right?  And, in such a case, they should not force the user to pay for IE, right?  Do tell me IE is free because its bundled, that would be pure BS.  Pleple are paying for it.

Will you sing the same tune when palladium rolls around?

V

[Zombie9920]

quote:Originally posted by Doctor V 0.8.7:


Your absolutely right Zombie, an OS maker should be able to include whatever software they want to with their OS.  And a computer manufacturer should also be able to control what software comes with the computer they sell.            If they want to sell a comp with windows and Moz instead of Windows and IE, they should be allowed to do that right?  And, in such a case, they should not force the user to pay for IE, right?  Do tell me IE is free because its bundled, that would be pure BS.  Pleple are paying for it.

Will you sing the same tune when palladium rolls around?

V

It would be very foolish to even attempt removing every bit of IE code from Windows. If you did your GUI would be as usable as Windows 95 without IE4 and the desktop update was.

I don't know why anyone using Windows would only want the capability of using a bitmap as a wallpaper, I don't know why they would want to lose the ability to customize Window backgrounds, etc. Hiding the IE icon is good enough of a solution if you ask me(which XP SP1 does if you choose not to use the MS software like IE as a default). XP SP1 offers you the opportunity to change program access and default programs for certain tasks at any time. When you choose another browser as a default browser w/SP1 there is still enough IE code left functional in Windows for Windows Explorer to reap the benefits of intergrating the IE browser into explorer. Mozilla does not enhance Explorer at all, nor does any other browser. The IE intergration into Explorer was a good thing(it is no wonder why KDE does the same intergration stuff with Konquererr). I still want to know why people don't complain about software intergration in other OSes..I mean, the other OSes are doing the same thing MS is doing. The bottom line is intergration is not bad. Combining functions of different software into an OS adds so many more features into the OS(Window Manager). Since when has the evolution of software been a bad thing?

Also, no...the OEMs do not reserve the right to uninstall the default MS software that comes with Windows. If MS wants thier software to come with Windows that is the way it should be. The OEM'ss do not make Windows therefore they don't have the right to say what should and shouldn't be in Windows. They have the right to install extra software that will co-exist with the MS software(remember, MS software does not cripple any alternative programs). They should have the right to sell computers without Windows pre-installed..but they signed the contract saying they can't so I guess it is thier own fault.

OEM's don't give a fuck about Linux and they don't really want to sell a comp with no OS because they lose profits that way. They get Windows cheap(probably about $5 per copy) and they sell it for around regular retail price (included in the cost of the computer). That makes them alot of extra $$$. Linux is not a profitable solution for them, so why would they want to waste thier time with Linux? Selling a comp with no OS at all obviously will cut how much profit they make too, so why would they want to sell OSless computers?

Remember, companies aren't in business to lose money...no, no, no...they are all about making money.  

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Zombie9920 ]