Firearms debate (formerly Symantec Firewall blocks freedom)

[flap]

quote:Saying i'm not allowed to have a gun is just as silly as saying i'm not allowed to have a baseball bat. Both can kill someone, but none of them are dangerous by themselves. Both are used for sport. If you do not want to own a gun, i respect that and I will not try to convince you (or force you by legal means) to have one. You shouldn't do it to me. I, like most people in this country, am responsible with my firearms.

You're missing the point. It isn't really a problem if people like you have a gun; presumably you only use it responsibly. The problem is that the mass availability of guns that your wild-west culture has produced allows criminals to easily get their hands on them. You may think it's "collective punishment" to stop law-abiding people from owning guns just because other people mis-use them, but there has to be a balance between individual rights and the overall good of society. The fact is that the gun culture in the US is completely out of control, and it engenders a type of violent crime that just isn't possible in other countries.

[badkarma]

In my opinion the whole point of the firearms debate boils down to the following:

wether or not you can be responsible with your firearm (I'm sure most of the gun bearing posters here have no problems with that) is totally irrelevant because it matters not wether you can be/are responsible with a firearm. What matters is that if firearm possesion is so ubiquitous it is just too easy for people who lack the responsibility to attain one. For me this fact alone instantly justifies any law or regulation prohibiting firearms. The equation here is quite simple really: less people with guns = less gun related accidents will happen. Anyone who thinks this is irrelevant should just take a look at high school shooting incidents in the US and other countries with stricter gun laws. Shootouts such as the one which took place in Columbine are unheard of where I live (there has been one gun related high-school incident here in the Netherlands in the past that I can think of).

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the fact that you can easily own a gun is the cause for such incidents, because that is the human factor (people suck). But since we cannot eliminate the human factor we can only try to purge other factors.

Oh... and you actually *can* get a gun in the Netherlands but only for sport, and the rules gun posession are bound to would make most americans awe in disbelief (amongst other things you need to succesfully pass a psychological test and you must  store the gun in a vault in your home(!) or risk paying a hefty fine).

my

[Master of Reality]

.....nyways... i have another point.... i wonder if they block the olympics website, there is around 20 events that involve shooting. Its one of the safest sports in the world. I have never heard of an injury in competition shooting. I have heard of several injuries in other sports such as rugby, football, hockey, etc, etc.

[Laukev7]

quote: ....nyways... i have another point.... i wonder if they block the olympics website, there is around 20 events that involve shooting. Its one of the safest sports in the world. I have never heard of an injury in competition shooting. I have heard of several injuries in other sports such as rugby, football, hockey, etc, etc.

Uh, that's because they shoot targets, not at each other. At any rate, censoring is bad, whatever the cause is.

[insomnia]

quote:Originally posted by Stryker:
Saying i'm not allowed to have a gun is just as silly as saying i'm not allowed to have a baseball bat. Both can kill someone, but none of them are dangerous by themselves. Both are used for sport.

I don't think those american contract-killers in Iraq are using baseball bats...
(Maybe that could resolve America's money problem..., you could also start using pro-teams as elite soldiers.)

[Faust]

quote:would you pull out a gun and try to rob a bank, if you know that the 40 people in there could have guns too?

I wouldn't.  Then again I'm not stupid, desperate or "slightly out of touch with reality."  People robbing banks are quite often all 3 as well as pretty fucking twitchy and or on heavy drugs...  face it, if youre desperate enough to rob a bank in the first place, the knowledge that you might die doing it isnt much more.  You're saying theres a twitchy nutter pointing a shotgun at me and you want the guy beside me to reach for his revolver?  WHAT THE FUCK?  40 people in one bank willing to gun down a psycho with a bigger gun?  And you expect innocent people not to die in that situation?  Sorry, I just want this guy to get his cash and leave.  Cash isn't lives, and I feel safe in the banks where I live without owning a gun.

For sporting purposes why would you need anything as powerful as what you get in America?  In Australia you can get guns but you cant get anything on the "too powerful" list.  Why do I need a "big" gun to defend myself?  If I wanted a gun to defend myslef all I need is something big enough to stop a guy moving at me or being coherent enough to shoot me.  Less guns over here and yet a much lower crime rate...  Strange huh?

 

quote:Saying i'm not allowed to have a gun is just as silly as saying i'm not allowed to have a baseball bat.

Actually I would feel much safer if I was living in a country where the aforemementioned robber might have to "make do" with a baseball bat.  Oh wait...  I am.  

I am sure that many gun owners in America are responsible...  but some are not.  By limiting the amount of guns (especially powerful guns) and their availability in Australia it is much more difficult for the occasional "evil doer" to get one.  No, its not impossible but it is more difficult, which means it happens less often, which means there is far far less gun related deaths in Australia.  Yeah if a guy is coming at me with a gun I would like to have one too...  But I am willing to sacrifice my right to own a big arse gun easily because by doing so I know that there are less guns out there, and it is less likely that I will ever be in that situation where I want a gun.  Its not impossible, but its less likely, and I happen to like my odds better this way.  The violent crime statistics like my odds better this way too.  You say that people will always be able to get powerful guns, but in Australia it doesn't happen often.  In Bowling For  Columbine there is a kid who brags about being able to sell guns for $1.50 each...  Thats less than I would spend on my lunch.  That doesnt happen in Australia, and I feel safer and am safer because of it, and I owe that to my countries stricter gun control.

That said, I dont like Symantecs censorship.  I may not agree with the NRA but they have a right to be listened to.  (Is there an "option" that clearly states "ticking this box will disallow access to pro gun sites?"  If so it's a lot better IMHO.)

[anphanax]

I've read some documents where violent crimes are higher in countries without hand weapons.

By censoring guns, you are censoring hunting, a pasttime that many enjoy in this country, and have a right to do, regardless of your political beliefs.

One could argue that porn is inapproriate for young users, so guns should be too. The difference is, you have youth hunting camps and groups. You don't have youth pornography groups and camps (AT LEAST NOT LEGALLY).

Even if you hate firearms, there are people who are legit for them. The police and public/private security officials would be screwed without them. Shoot or be shot. Bullet proof vests are like jello if you've got the right gun and ammunition (which, thank god, is illegal for public use). And if they're all you've got, good luck stopping a dangerous psycho from his killing spree.

[ November 05, 2003: Message edited by: anphanax ]

[hm_murdock]

I, myself own two weapons, one is a vintage M1 Garand rifle that my grandfather had, and the other is a Magnum/IMI Desert Eagle.

You could say "whoa! why do you need a military rifle?"

Why? Because it's a very attractive object. Have you ever seen one?

http://www.memorableplaces.com/m1garand/

It's very beautiful, being mostly walnut. Highly polished with a deep, red-brown stain. This is an original WWII era model built by Springfield Armory. The reissues are selling for nearly $2000. It's a .3006 gas-powered semi-auto rifle with an 8-round internal magazine. What do I do with it? Keep it on a rack unloaded. I have one box of shells for it. One box. Why only one box? Because all I'll ever do with it is take it to a shooting range and maybe out hunting. I don't even keep the things in the same room with it. The mechanism is also partially-disassembled for safety concerns.

As for my Desert Eagle... that's a different story. Why do I own a .50AE caliber handgun? I have to be honest... because I think it's cool, and I had $1500 to spend. The Desert Eagle has been featured in several movies lately, including Snatch (Bullettooth's gun), and The Matrix trilogy as the agents' handgun.

http://magnumresearch.com/old/xixpistols.html

What do I do with it? Have it. Again, I have one box of rounds for it... mainly because it's cost prohibitive to have much more. .50AE Magnum rounds are $25 to $30 for a box of 20 rounds. This thing sits around in a drawer with the magazine right next to it. It's not loaded, but that's nearly effortless to remedy. Slap it in, pull the slide. You're ready to roll. If someone busts into my place, the only way they'll get out is by dragging their legs out.

I've taken several courses in handgun use and ownership. I'm able to take someone down with an incapacitation shot. It's very hard to sue someone when you're caught in their home and they stop you by intentionally non-lethal means.

I enjoy action movies and games and all that crap, and therefore "guns are cool". There's ways that people can enjoy shooting guns responsibly and safely. In addition to my two real guns, I also own several airsoft replicas. Airsoft is a brilliant idea from Japan. Realistic gun replicas that fire harmless plastic BBs. The guns can be spring-powered single-shot, electric-powered, or gas-powered. Spring guns have to be cocked every shot, electric ones are realistic in their firing, and are powered by batteries and electric motors and gearboxes, while gas guns use one of several gases to blow the BB out. The worst injury you can sustain is a sting. Wearing proper safety gear will protect your face, eyes, and ears. There you have it, responsible, safe gun recreation. These replicas all carry a red-orange muzzle based on US laws.

Now... that doesn't answer many questions as to why it's important to Americans to have guns.

Let me tell you why.

IN 1776 WE FOUGHT A WAR WITH THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF ENGLAND TO WIN OUR INDEPENDENCE.

IN 1789, THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WAS DRAFTED.

BY THE MID 1790S, THE BILL OF RIGHTS WAS DRAFTED.

The founding fathers of our nation INTENDED for American citizens to be able to protect themselves. Not just from criminals, but, according to speeches and manuscripts, from the very government that they themselves were building.

I don't intend for you to understand, you're not from the United States, you grew up differently, it's not wrong or bad, or backwards of you to think the way you do. It's also not wrong or backwards of us to think the way we do. It's just different.

[billy_gates]

it is our second amendment right to bear arms.  This right is being violated.  We can no longer bear arms.  They have to be under lock and key in most states.

I think a good solution will be mandatory gun ownership (and mandatory education too).
No one would fuck with anyone if everyone had a gun.
I think that idea would be crazy... but theoretically it would work.

I will be damned the day the damn liberals take away my second amendment rights.

[flap]

quote:If someone busts into my place, the only way they'll get out is by dragging their legs out.

So all the time you're at home you're within reach of your gun? If so, that almost doesn't sound stupid. And if you think guns are such a deterrent then why do you think burglary still actually ever happens in the US?

 

quote:I think a good solution will be mandatory gun ownership (and mandatory education too). No one would fuck with anyone if everyone had a gun.

Good idea, genius. That's why the old american west was so peaceful. In fact that's why wars are so peaceful, because everybody has a gun, so naturally no-one dares to "fuck with" anyone else.

[Faust]

quote:By censoring guns, you are censoring hunting, a pasttime that many enjoy in this country, and have a right to do, regardless of your political beliefs.

And you need a desert eagle for hunting right?  In most countries people who say they need their guns for "hunting" cant get access to replica M16s.  Easy access to guns sure helped the washington sniper hey?

 

quote:Even if you hate firearms, there are people who are legit for them. The police and public/private security officials would be screwed without them. Shoot or be shot. Bullet proof vests are like jello if you've got the right gun and ammunition (which, thank god, is illegal for public use). And if they're all you've got, good luck stopping a dangerous psycho from his killing spree.

And exactly where did anyone say guns should be taken off police?  You get what you need, and cops have a legitimate need for weaponry designed to kill people.

Yeah, you just said again how responsible you are with guns.  Re read my post.  Its not you I'm worried about.

 

quote:it is our second amendment right to bear arms.  This right is being violated

Just because its a law doesnt make it right.

[insomnia]

quote:Originally posted by The Merciless Darth Jimmy James:
If someone busts into my place, the only way they'll get out is by dragging their legs out.

...or shoot you before you can kill him.
If you're not armed, you can only lose money.
If you point a gun to a burglar you might end up dead.

[lazygamer]

quote:Originally posted by flap:
If these pro-gun Americans think the right to own a firearm is such a fundamental one, why do they think it is that people in other countries that don't have such liberal gun laws never, ever complain that they don't have the same rights? In this country most people regard the American obsession with guns with amusement. Most people here can't conceive of wanting to own a firearm, but maybe that's because we don't need them because we never made them legal in the first place. In this country even the police aren't armed, because they don't need to be. Compare that to the US where "more people died from gunshot wounds in the last 2 years alone than the whole Vietnam War" (http://www.peace.ca/giftfeararticles.htm). Do you really think that's the mark of a civilised country?

That's quite a broad statement you make. Alot probably do, or maybe they feel it's futile to complain, or maybe they don't understand the gun control issue enough. When they strengthened gun control laws in Canada, plenty of people complained.


   

quote:Originally posted by Flap:
You're missing the point. It isn't really a problem if people like you have a gun; presumably you only use it responsibly. The problem is that the mass availability of guns that your wild-west culture has produced allows criminals to easily get their hands on them. You may think it's "collective punishment" to stop law-abiding people from owning guns just because other people mis-use them, but there has to be a balance between individual rights and the overall good of society. The fact is that the gun culture in the US is completely out of control, and it engenders a type of violent crime that just isn't possible in other countries.

Funny, the pro gun guys like to use UK as an example of how a lack of guns makes non-firearm related violent crimes more common!      

Gun culture related to insane amounts of violent crime? Why the hell would you blame that before you blame America's racial or social issues?(not saying that this is the cause, just saying that it's a much more logical then gun culture) Also, there is probabilities, not everything has a good reason for being. It's possible that the US is just the unlucky country that has more violence than a first world country should.

   

quote:Originally posted by Laukev7:
Neither would handguns be if they were prohibited.[/QUOTE}

This is a decent argument I've heard before. Why aren't automatic weapons nearly as common as semi-automatics? Supposedly, it's because most black market guns aren't imported, but stolen from legal gun owners. Automatic weapons are alot more hassle to own(and highly expensive), so people are less inclined to bother.

However, a firearm is technology, and very common low level technology at that; It's hard to totally control technology. Auto weapons are prohibited but there is probably plenty of them in criminal hands, even if they pale in comparison to the amount of illegal semi-autos.

So if guns were totally banned, they would still keep popping up, just not as often.

Originally posted by Flap:
So all the time you're at home you're within reach of your gun? If so, that almost doesn't sound stupid. And if you think guns are such a deterrent then why do you think burglary still actually ever happens in the US?

There are different home defense situations, a gun may or may not help. Why does burglary still happen? This is because many people in the US do not own a gun, due to anti-gun messages and anti-gun laws in many states. Furthermore, a gun is not a gurantee that a burglary will not happen.  A person can be robbed while not home for example.

You probably think America is one giant pro-gun land, from what I've read on the net you are VERY WRONG.


   

quote:Originally posted by Flap:
Good idea, genius. That's why the old american west was so peaceful. In fact that's why wars are so peaceful, because everybody has a gun, so naturally no-one dares to "fuck with" anyone else.

The wild west was a frontier with a lack of law enforcement! If there were no guns everyone would have carried a knife, wouldn't have changed a thing. Besides, people had the guns to protect themself against the criminals. Of course the criminals had guns too, that's why the citizens needed guns as opposed to knives. Basically, blame the criminals, not the idea of bearing arms.

Your war comment is totally illogical. People are fighting, trying to KILL each other. Due to the lack of guns, they can use swords and arrows and kill each other just as effectively. Swords and arrows not good enough for you? How about our hands and feet! Solider knocks his foe out, then kills him by crushing his windpipe with his foot!

If there are reasons for gun control, using wars and the wild west as an example doesn't help the cause.

So to the gun control people: Does gun control really make you feel alot safer? Would you suddenly feel good about walking through your local hood, in a society where there have been harsh gun laws for years? Most people would not. How is gun control making you alot safer if your local hood is still unsafe?

I look at guns as details, not the big picture. Guns can create alot of new issues(like that maryland sniper incident, or columbine), but in the overall day to day murders and injuries, would they really have a major effect? If 4 thugs have guns and attack you, you are fucked. If 4 thugs have baseball bats and attack you, you are still fucked(some people might not be, but most would). In the vast majority of cases, the victim would be dead or hospitalized. How would gun control help here?

I think that even when criminals have guns, having a gun might save your life. Situations vary, although in many cases having a gun will not help. However, lacking a gun means that a person has even less chance for survival overall.


   

quote:...or shoot you before you can kill him.
If you're not armed, you can only lose money.
If you point a gun to a burglar you might end up dead.

With some robberies a burglar can be crazed, so he might kill a person anyways. You bring up a good point, having a gun can get someone killed. For example, running out of ammo against a group of attackers. Or getting shot while you shoot your foe.

[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: lazygamer ]

[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: lazygamer ]

[flap]

quote:And exactly where did anyone say guns should be taken off police? You get what you need, and cops have a legitimate need for weaponry designed to kill people.

Actually in the UK even the police (in the main) don't need guns.

 

quote:That's quite a broad statement you make. Alot probably do, or maybe they feel it's futile to complain, or maybe they don't understand the gun control issue enough.

Believe me, there are all kinds of pressure groups in the UK (as in any other country) and none of them are campaigning for loosening of gun control laws. If they are then they're so small in number that they're not visible. Why would anyone (liberal or conservative) want to go from a situation in which shootings are rare and every one makes the national news, to one akin to the US where hundreds happen everyday and are accepted as commonplace?

 

quote:So to the gun control people: Does gun control really make you feel alot safer? Would you suddenly feel good about walking through your local hood, in a society where there have been harsh gun laws for years? Most people would not. How is gun control making you alot safer if your local hood is still unsafe?

Yes, it does actually make me feel a lot safer. Even if my local "hood" is unsafe, it's still a lot safer than it would be with guns. If 4 thugs attack me and they have guns, as you say I'm fucked. There's absolutely no defence against a gun, not even having a gun myself. If they attack me and they have baseball bats, I can run away. It's as simple as that. The difference between firearms and knives or bats is that there's no effective defence against guns.

It's a lot easier to kill someone with a gun. A gun immediately affords a criminal a level of power that he simply wouldn't have with, say, a knife. You can't jack a car with a knife, and it's a lot more difficult (or impossible) to hold up a store or bank etc.

[Laukev7]

I find that the firearms issue is a very interesting topic. It boils down to important philosophical issues like individual vs society freedom, preemption vs retaliation and self-justice vs court justice. I agree with flap that proliferation of firearms only increases criminality; it is simply absurd to believe that handing out more firearms for people to protect themselves will ever solve the problem it causes in the first place. This thread being no longer about censorship, I am going to rename it in consequence.