So let me get this straight. 15 insepctors

[voidmain]

But Rev, if you do that you are attacking the symbol of billions of Muslims. Don't you think that would just incite more Osama followers? I don't believe that is the way to handle it. That is the kind of thing that the terrorists would do.

[KernelPanic]

quote:Originally posted by The Rev. Annorax:
Tux... I have to disagree with your post. If you disagree, attack the post, not me.

As for my thoughts, lesser actions have done approximately NO good - Osama's still out there, building up resources for whatever he's going to do next, and removing his stranglehold on Afghanistan didnt help. I believe the only way to convince his followers (notice i dont say muslims.... i'm not the kind of person to condemn a billion people for the actions of a couple dozen) that his way is NOT the way to achieve what they think is right... and destroying something they consider an important symbol may be the way to do that.

I'm sorry but I cannot stand stooping to low levels like that. I feel happier staying above them. Also, The consequences of that would be terrible. America (or the nation that did it) would lose all credability. There would be millions of new terrorist recruits and people would turn to fanaticism as comfort.
Another thing we have to remember is that 9/11 was for a purpose. It was awful, evil and in no way in the name of God and it in no way helped their cause. But there was a root cause. We live in a society where we are too hasty to look at consequences rather than causes.

It's kinda like Western and Eastern medicine.

In the west, you will be pumped full of drug to block the pain/symptons, with possible unknown side effects. In china thought, the herbal doctor will give you something to restore balance in the body and stop the root cause of you symptoms.

In the current world climate, fanatisicm is a symptom. There are several causes, some more valid than others. These need reviewing and the world needs some balance, with the goal of harmony.

ps. I didnt really mean to insult you. What you said just struck me as stupid. Anyway, i'm only human, so fuck it.

[choasforages]

too bad that strife in those regions has been going on for thousands of years. it all goes back to the, "IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG, AND YOUR ON OUR HOLY LANDS SO EITHER CONVERT OR FUCK OFF AND DIE BY OUR SWORDS" attitude that the three main factions have. there will NEVER be peace. three seperate groups with totally different and conflicting beliefs, with a push to make everyone else believe the same and so forth.. and about the other countries you mentioned, our middle eastern problems will pale when china decides america would make a nice addition to asia. do they still make fallout shelters?

and for chinas regime,  the U.S. wouldn't do anything about them, its sad. and north korea. THEY HAVE NUKES, we know that for sure/*and i think they still don't have the reactor we promised for getting rid of their formor program*/. but no, bush wants to be popular, and thus have the power of the people, err, sheeple, and get his 8 year riegn. as i have said before, IT'S HOPELESS, prove me wrong

[choasforages]

and remember, it was afganistan that broke the russians back./*not to mention U.S. helping back then what would become todays problems*/

[Doctor V]

quote:Originally posted by Calum:
how come your country doesn't give two hoots when other innocents are slaughtered? china has been illegally occupying nepal for decades, and all you can say is you don't like china?
[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

 

quote:Originally posted by chaosforages:
and for chinas regime, the U.S. wouldn't do anything about them, its sad.

China.  Just to correct the statement above by Calum,  Nepal is an independant country that is not occupied by China.  Nepal is a Monarchy that is in the middle of a civil war.  Nepal is the 2nd poorest country, life was so bad for the people that they couldn't just sit around and watch the King screw them over and cater to the rich anymore.  The people worked long hours under terrible conditions for pay that was next to nothing.  So they rebelled, wanting to set up a Maoist-like *Democracy*.  The Nepalese people overwhelmingly support the rebels, but naturally, the USA is considering sending millions of dollars in military aid to the current government to support Monarchy and ensure that the poor masses and their grandchildren have no hope for the future.  *UK* has already sent such aid.  Calum was probably referring to Tibet, a large himalayan reigon in southwestern China that is historically a part of China dispite religious differences.  There was a movie created in Hollywood with Brad Pitt about Tibet.  I hope people do not believe everything in the movie.  It was a movie, made to sell tickets.  There are numerous parts of the movie that are quite inconsistant with reality.  Some but not all Tibetans want to be free of China.  But the truth is, China has drastically improved the lives of the Tibetan people.  The only reason the people have to become independant is religion.

V

[Calum]

oops!

yes i was referring to Tibet! sorry about that!

as for terror vs terror, i have to say that only void main and tux really make any sense, out of all the people who have been participating in the stock 'US vs Islam' debate.

What many of you seem to dismiss is the fact that it is NOT the US vs Islam. it is the US vs Osama Bin Laden and his cohorts/disciples/whatever. Even his civilian supporters are mostly just caught up in the zeitgeist i suspect. Islam is not any worse than christianity, but humans tend to fear and loath the unknown.

The only way is to lead by example, and not react blindly with flying fists. that is immature to the extreme.

also, it strikes me as incredibly sad if US citizens can honestly say that the world trade centre is an equivelant religious symbol to Mohammed's house in Mecca. One is a religious symbol to millions, and the other was a fucking office block for gods' sake! it was the bloody stock market! how can you say that was a symbol to you?  

I can COMPLETELY understand the enormous emotions, trauma and loss involved in the tragic loss of life that was involved, but i can in no way see that you can seriously say that your symbols were attacked. Do you really feel that way about a big office block? this is what i meant before about saluting to the flag. dangerous.

you know (at least) one of my work colleagues is a muslim. he's from london and has lived here all his life (i know another one from glasgow too) and you know what? he's a great guy. good sense of humour, nomalice in him. why am i mentioning this? because some of you seem very prejudiced against muslims. most of them are ordinary people like you or me. i am surprised that no muslims have read this thread by now and posted a response. You must think about reality before you go applying blind (and flawed) sweeping logic to situations that are almost infinitely intricate.

one thing that a friend of mine said to me once, that i think is relevant here:

 

quote:You should never talk in absolutes!

[voidmain]

I don't know of anyone in the US that saw the WTC as a religious symbol. It certainly was an American symbol though. And I would prefer to think that it is "world against Osama" and not just "US against Osama".

And let me tell you, I get chocked up and tears well up in my eyes every time I hear our national anthem or the popular song "Proud to be an American", and when at sporting events it pisses me off when I see young people not standing during the anthem. You can call me screwed up and dangerous all you want but that's the sort of pride I have in my country. I don't see anything wrong with that and I think it's great when people from other countries have the same pride in their country.

[flap]

What if the people at your games stood up and saluted white power songs (assuming you're caucasian)? Would you get teary-eyed over that? Are you proud of your race as well as your country?

[Calum]

hmm, i wouldn't imagine void main is a racist. are you void main? i don't think so.

I also have pride in my country, although unlike US citizens i am also ashamed of my country (I might add that if any US citizens also feel ashamed of their country then it will be for different reasons) for being so piss weak as to still be a part of the 'british empire' when most other empire nations have got their independence by now.

I would stand for the Scottish national anthem (the real one) and i would certainly never stand for, or sing, the 'national anthem' that often gets foisted upon me as a 'british subject'. I take great personal offence at the  english national anthem. See line 27 to find the reason why.

I think that if people disagree with a national anthem then they should not show any sign of respect for it. People should be allowed to have a choice, whether they agree with me or not, whether they agree with the consensus or not.

As a matter of fact, it is commonly believed that Flower of Scotland should be (or is) Scotland's national anthem. This song is racist, almost to the point that the english one is, and i think it is backward and stupid to glorify the act of fighting an army that ultimately defeated us and who still rule over us. I also think that it is pathetic to have a national anthem that defines our nation more in terms of our enemies than ourselves. Where is the pride in our own country? why the hypocrisy?

Again i say. I will not salute if i have no respect. I will not stand if i have no respect. I will not show disrespect either unless it is warranted however. I do not think people should ever be forced to show respect for something they have no respect for. It will only breed contempt, and that contempt will only breed the sort of prejudice and racism that we often see when discussions about 'the war on terror' crop up.

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by flap:
What if the people at your games stood up and saluted white power songs (assuming you're caucasian)? Would you get teary-eyed over that? Are you proud of your race as well as your country?

This really isn't worthy of a response but here goes... I happen to be what you call "white", but I don't really see the color of skin as being a "race" as some/most people do. "White" people can be decendents of many different cultures. Most of the people higher up on my family tree originated in Europe, Germany primarily. And it was only around 100 years ago that they came to America on a boat. They must have had reasons for coming to America. Whatever they were doesn't really matter to me.

I have experienced many different places and I know how good I have it. I also happen to have family members who are *not* white. They are just as patriotic as I am. I also don't see anything wrong with being proud of your race, I am proud to be a German decendant. I don't hate other races or hate other people for the color of their skin. I think it is great that African Americans are proud to be so. Does that make me a racist? I don't think so. I think people who are in the KKK or other racist organizations are friggin idiots, but anyone can see that just listening to them. You can see it on Springer any day of the week. You may see this as shallow or racist but I don't really care what you think.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by Calum:
I also have pride in my country, although unlike US citizens i am also ashamed of my country (I might add that if any US citizens also feel ashamed of their country then it will be for different reasons) for being so piss weak as to still be a part of the 'british empire' when most other empire nations have got their independence by now.

But see here ya go making generalizations. There *are* Americans who are ashamed of America. You see many of them on this forum. Macman has made some statements that make me believe he is ashamed in some ways of America. I happen to be one of the decreasing numbers of Americans who are not ashamed of their country. I don't believe I have much to be ashamed about and I really don't understand why everyone dumps on us. Maybe I'm thick headed. People complain at everything we do and then turn around and complain about things we don't do.

And I should clarify my point about young people not standing during the national anthem. I should say that it "saddens" me rather than it pisses me off. It saddens me that they do not understand or comprehend. But then when I was young I didn't yet grasp what it means. Some day they may. You can not "force" patriotism. It's something that has to come to you.

The things I see patriotic people doing: Helping their neighbor in times of crisis, natural disaster, family disaster, etc. Knowing their neighbor will help them in times of crisis. Taking an active role in the community. Loving their community and doing what they can to make it a better place. Selfless.

The things I see non-partiotic people doing: Sitting idly by when their neighbor is in need. Maybe they say "awww, too bad for him, luckily I don't have it that bad". Generally pissed off about everything. "It's all about me."

One of the great things about the US is that it is not forced on you. You are not forced to stand. Luckily 98% of Americans do understand and comprehend. Hopefully that doesn't diminish. When it does, *that* is when the world needs to start getting worried about America.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: void main ]

[Calum]

your post about racism was top class! well said! in fact:



However i am afraid that you misconstrued me a bit again about the americans. I wasn't saying they're not some of them ashamed of the US, since it takes all sorts to make a world and so on, but i am saying that any US citizen who is ashamed of their country for still being part of the british empire is severely behind the times. In scotland however many people have yet to wake up to the fact that they have been under the english heel for a few hundred years too long.

and no offence intended to the english, by the way, however i think their occupation and dominance over scotland is unjustified and immoral, and should be stopped. That is not racist, as i have nothing against an english person, or english people unless they particularly have done something to piss me off.

[Calum]

quote:You can not "force" patriotism. It's something that has to come to you.

again, i agree completely.  

quote:One of the great things about the US is that it is not forced on you. You are not forced to stand.

this is very important. i agree entirely.  

quote:Luckily 98% of Americans do understand and comprehend.

HOWEVER i must say that even if you do understand you might still choose not to stand. And there would be nothing wrong with that. Just because somebody doesn't stand for their national anthem doesn't mean that they don't understand those that do. Don't get me wrong, i agree with you, however i think it's important to distinguish between not understanding and understanding but choosing not to participate.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Calum ]

[flap]

I don't stand during a national anthem because I *do* understand how utterly screwed up and dangerous (to use your own apt words) "national pride" is.

As Bertrand Russell put it: "Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons."

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: flap ]

[lazygamer]

Tis funny how shit works in other countries. I always thought England was one big happy family.