Which Language first?

[lazygamer]

Rather then make a new thread, I'd like to hear what you people have to say about the C++/C VS Turbo Pascal issue? I grew up on Turbo Pascal(even though I never mastered it). I loved it, it was the ultimate. So clear, concise and efficient. Yet it's outdated, and I am forced to learn C cuz my TP compiler don't like modern systems. I've been using DJGPP.

What's Delphi like, is it modern TP? Is Delphi good? Does it work on Linux?

[voidmain]

I also began programming using TP back around the late 80s and liked it so much I decided to make programming a profession. After going through school I ended up programming FORTRAN and SAS on mainframes and PV-WAVE and ARC/INFO on IBM RS/6000 UNIX systems. Once on the UNIX systems it was clear that "C" was the language to use.  Everything was written in it. It was extremely portable.

I have also done a fair amount of Delphi programming on Windows.  Delphi to TP is basically what Visual Basic is to QBASIC.  It's an object oriented graphical development environment for Windows.  I definitely prefer Delphi over VB.  However, I have gotten so anti-M$ that I don't program in any of those Windows specific languages any more.  

TP, Delphi, VB are all Windows specific languages.  There are no UNIX versions (well, actually you can get Pascal compilers and there is GNU Pascal but Borland didn't create a version that I am aware of).  You want to program in a portable cross-platform language you need to learn C, C++, and to a lesser extent Java.  Also, Perl is a good cross platform scripting language (Actually, Perl can also be compiled into binary form).

Having said that, I do very little programming any more in compiled languages.  I have become more fond of administration and networking over the last 8 years or so but still do a significant amount of scripting and web/database programming useing Shell scripts, Perl, PHP, PostgreSQL, MySQL, Sybase, etc...  But I think any programmer (who's horizons run above M$) would tell you that you can not go wrong by learning C and/or C++ as a baseline.

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[jtpenrod]

quote:TP, Delphi, VB are all Windows specific languages. There are no UNIX versions (well, actually you can get Pascal compilers and there is GNU Pascal but Borland didn't create a version that I am aware of). You want to program in a portable cross-platform language you need to learn C, C++, and to a lesser extent Java. Also, Perl is a good cross platform scripting language (Actually, Perl can also be compiled into binary form).

Actually, that's not true. Borland has a product called Kylix that's just like Delphi for linux. While Perl is pretty good, and well worth learning, its syntax tends to be a bit arcane. A better scripting language to learn with would be Python. The syntax is much clearer than Perl, and it's much easier to learn. Not only that, but it's also a full-featured language you can keep on using, not just something you learn on before moving onto something better.
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[the_black_angel]

I agree Python is an excellent language to learn first as:

1. It is very easy to learn (i created a calculator after 1 hour of reading, and having no other programming languages besides html)

2. Its very portable

3. gives you good habits for all other languages, e.g. c,c++,java

[the_black_angel]

does anyone have any good objective-c tutorial?(online) - i have no money for a book  

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by jtpenrod:
Actually, that's not true. Borland has a product called Kylix that's just like Delphi for linux. While Perl is pretty good, and well worth learning, its syntax tends to be a bit arcane. A better scripting language to learn with would be Python. The syntax is much clearer than Perl, and it's much easier to learn. Not only that, but it's also a full-featured language you can keep on using, not just something you learn on before moving onto something better.

What language is Kylix? Pascal? Or is it nothing more than an IDE for C?  If it's another language, is it portable?  If it is not I certainly wouldn't recommend it.  I still say C is the way to go.

I also disagree with the Python/Perl thing.  I don't believe Python is easier to learn than Perl, in fact I would say it is more difficult.  I would also say that Python isn't nearly as widely used accross all platforms.  I stand by my Perl suggestion.

[the_black_angel]

Perl is starting to show its age - if you want to do a largish program (3-400 lines) which would you choose perl or python? i would use python, perl i find gets too cumbersome if you go above 175-200 lines. Its catch fraze was many way to do the same(or something along those lines    ) i find this too confusing.

Then again i'm probibly biased as all hell as it is the first language i learnt and am most familiar/comfortable with.

[lazygamer]

Hypothethical question, if someone transplanted/modified/contiuned the TP language and made it capable of doing oldsk00l text mode stuff or being a cross platform power house that can DIRECTLY interact with macOS, Linux, Wind0ze etc.

Would that rock the house more then C ever would/did? I question whether C is only here because of luck rather then quality. Which is like Microsoft, here because of luck rather then quality. Ok it's true that C is much better then Wind0ze ever was, but im biased...  

[voidmain]

No, C is not here by accident. C is a lower level language than Pascal.  It is not as strongly typed as Pascal.  Because of that they each have their pros and cons.

The guy who created 'C' is also a major player in the development of UNIX. See the history of C here:

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html

I started on Pascal as I said, but C is an integral part of UNIX (and other OSs).  It is powerful, fast, compact. I don't believe it is any harder to learn than Pascal and they are somewhat similar languages. I can't imagine why anyone would want to replace C with Pascal.  I can tell you it would never happen.  In fact I know of many applications that were originally written in Pascal later converted to C.  I don't know of any cases where someone ported a C program to Pascal, other than for learning purposes.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

[voidmain]

quote:Originally posted by the_black_angel:
Perl is starting to show its age - if you want to do a largish program (3-400 lines) which would you choose perl or python? i would use python, perl i find gets too cumbersome if you go above 175-200 lines. Its catch fraze was many way to do the same(or something along those lines     ) i find this too confusing.

Then again i'm probibly biased as all hell as it is the first language i learnt and am most familiar/comfortable with.

I regularly write 1000-5000 line Perl scripts.  I can see it would be a pain if you don't follow good programming practices.  But if you use subroutines and functions like you do in any other language and use local/global variables properly like in any other language then it could be a pain.

Now, the kinds of things I usually write are system and web scripts that usually don't require more than about 1000 lines.  If I am going to write such a major program I probably wouldn't do it in either Perl or Python but go for C/C++.

[ahri]

kylix is object pascal

apparently, kylix 3 will let you use either C++ or object pascal http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/26321.html

The thing i like about kylix is that is lets you use assembly right in your source code. But for some reason, i don't like object pascal. The interface section and all those uses statments are really annoying. Couldn't they be hidden or something. I don't want to see all that junk in my source code, just the routines and maybe variable decs. And that semi colon before the equals sign looks weird for some reason. Maybe i just need to get used to it.

[voidmain]

I used to like Borland a lot and they have received a lot of money from me for TP, BP, TC, BC, and Delphi. I have grown far away from them in the last few years though. They are still far better than M$ for development.  

I have grown very fond of the UNIX way of programming. Several shell prompts, vim, and gcc.  Agreed writing graphical apps can be much speedier with RAD tools such as kdevelop.  

I imagine that Kylix would be very proprietary.  That is I wonder how easy it would be to generate portable C++ code using Kylix and then be able to take that code over to another platform (or even just another machine with the same OS) and be able to compile it using gcc.  That is a *must*.  It would do me no good if everyone that wanted to compile my code would have to have Kylix, or have to do a considerable amount of code manipulation.

[ciaran]

Just been reading through this topic and something struck me. Why does nobody recommend java??? I've been forced (damn university) to learn java and c++ and i really like both. I also had to learn visual basic for a job and it just stinks. For simplicity I (in my very very humble opinion) defo recommend java as a stepping stone to c++...

[the_black_angel]

Java is not very well implemented in Linux (that i know of let me know if im wrong)

It does not run well in microshit at all.

Mac OS X is the only OS that i know of (besides sun) that full implements Java. what i have seen of Java i like i haven't actually learnt it yet but i will (maybe the next holidays).

[voidmain]

Huh?  Java usually isn't distributed with Linux because it is proprietary if that is what you mean. Get Java for Linux from http://java.sun.com