frontpage: the choice of the KKK

[Aloone_Jonez]

I agree WMD, we don't want this thread to turn to shit. Could some mod please delete the replys proceding this one:

We really need to get that sand out of your vagina.

[Annorax]

Do we really need to debate any "positive" attributes of a racist organization? Racist pricks that use OSS are still racist pricks.
I have rolled this thread back to a time before it was derailed with a reported personal attack on a forum member.

Keep your discussion in this thread to the topic at hand and don't derail it again.

Thank you.

[Kintaro]

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[muzzy]

Hey, did my wonderful post get killed? Blindly opposing racism is stupid. It should be opposed for good reasons (which do exist). Merely opposing it because it's "stupid" is braindead and damaging to humanity as whole, plus it doesn't help solve the problem. There are lots of valid reasons to treat people as different race, and I don't see anything racistic in letting people be proud of their race. Heck, DENYING people the right to pride of what they are, that is racism.

Why is it ok to be proud of being redhead, but not ok to be proud of being white?

[Refalm]

Heck, DENYING people the right to pride of what they are, that is racism.

Speaking of those people, I once accidentally found this website which gives an inside look into the KKK:
http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/ku-klux-klan/

As expected, fascists are people too.

[muzzy]

That KKK gallery shows lots of lovely pictures. As long as they don't deny anyone else the pride to be what they are, I don't see anything wrong with KKK. Obviously, most of the things I've heard about KKK are exactly the wrongdoings, so it makes me wonder what has really happened in the past. I'm sure there are a lot of KKK members that are fine and good people, but obviously nobody pays attention to them. All you see are the cases of violence.

[Annorax]

That KKK gallery shows lots of lovely pictures. As long as they don't deny anyone else the pride to be what they are, I don't see anything wrong with KKK. Obviously, most of the things I've heard about KKK are exactly the wrongdoings, so it makes me wonder what has really happened in the past. I'm sure there are a lot of KKK members that are fine and good people, but obviously nobody pays attention to them. All you see are the cases of violence.

How the hell can a racist be "fine and good people?" Last I knew, racists were by definition "bad people".

[bedouin]

Why is it ok to be proud of being redhead, but not ok to be proud of being white?

It's not.  It's equally stupid.  No one yells, "redhead power," "redheads are the superior people," or "we must preserve the redhead traditions," because it's an idiotic concept.  So is the idea of preserving some mythical construct of White, Black, or, Asiatic culture; they're socially created constructs that have historically been used for nothing but discrimination and perpetration of stereotypes.  Additionally, the whole idea itself is so arbitrary, because everyone has a different definition of what "White," "Black," or "Asian" is depending on their political agenda.  For example, if you're asked to provide your race on a form in the US, if you're from the Middle East or North Africa you're expected to put "white," even if your skin tone is obviously darker.  On the other hand, if you're Hispanic you've somehow classified as a non-white, or depending on the form you can specific whether you are "white or non-white" Hispanic.  Race is nothing more than a political categorization, and in many cultures the idea doesn't even exist, at least not in this form.

There is no white culture, no more than there is a black one; no more than there is a brown-eyed, green-eyed, or readhead 'culture.'  There are, however, social and political conditions that in some regions of the world have forced individuals to identify with their skin color, because all other forms of identity have been stripped away from them (i.e. through slavery, colonization, and diaspora); the last time I checked this didn't happen (collectively) to so-called white people in the United States, so it makes the idea of a white supremacy movement even more idiotic.  

As long as they don't deny anyone else the pride to be what they are, I don't see anything wrong with KKK.

Right, because the KKK would never do that.

[muzzy]

Annorax, so, what exactly makes these guys bad people? You can straw-man them all you like, but in the process you end up not looking them as human beings.

So, these people are bad because they don't like some other group of people? How about you, then? Are you a good person or a bad person by this same definition? You classify people just the same, to good people and bad people, by a single determining factor. I thought that was the definition of racism.

You've been taught to hate KKK, and I can understand it. I hate acts of violence and such too, but that doesn't mean I'd hate people that commit them, or people who are somehow similar to those that commit them. People are still people. Unfortunately I don't know any KKK members myself so I don't have any personal opinions about them, but I'm not eating the anti-KKK propaganda.

I understand the need to have prejudices, and I have them towards many groups of people as well. However, prejudices shouldn't affect how you view individuals. I'm sure most people are good and fine by nature, there's always a reason why bad things happen and saying it's because of "bad people" is greatly naive.

[muzzy]

bedouin, as I said, "As long as they don't deny anyone else...". Yeah, I know people do bad things, but somehow classifying the whole group as evil and bad because of things that have happened in past, and acts committed by different people, that's wrong.

Also, my point about redheads was that nobody will feel hate towards a bunch of people who take pride in being redheads. Yet, people will hate those who take pride in being white. As you said, race is a political classification, but there are many other genetic classifications that can have practical uses. What comes to supremacy and preservation, that stinks attention seeking. Yet, what right does anyone have to prevent people from doing what they want to, as long as they don't violate the rights of others? What right does anyone have to deny others their pride in themselves and what they are?

[bedouin]

Read my post again, you didn't get it.

Also read about the history of the KKK, then tell me it's as innocent as the Irish, Italian, or Polish club down the street.  People feel animosity toward the KKK because their views simply can't lead anywhere good.  It's not a 'white pride' club, it's a "we hate anyone who's not white" club, which has historically (not just in theory) used violence against other non-whites to prove their point.  

No white person is going to have trouble hanging out at the Puerto Rican day parade; no black person will be harassed at a St. Patrick's day parade, however I doubt a black person is going to enjoy himself at the Klan rally.  This isn't about denying anyone their 'pride.'

[muzzy]

bedouin, How about you read the history of christianity, then tell me it's less innocent than KKK. The church isn't "jesus power" club, it's a "you're with us or you go to hell" club, which has historically (not just in theory) used violence against other non-believers to prove their point.

So, the problem is that blacks don't enjoy the Klan? This reminds me of a case in Sweden, where two muslims were removed from a flight because other passengers didn't feel secure about them being there. So, fear is the key issue in both cases, but are you going to blame those two muslims for the fear they caused in the rest of the passengers?

Does fear towards some people make them bad people, or does the assumption that they're bad people cause the fear? I'd say it's the latter, so the black man's racism is what makes him feel uneasy about the Klan. You can go dig the past of KKK and you'll find lots of violence, yeah, but that doesn't make any single unrelated klansman a bad person. If you say they're related by association the the Klan, then you're the racist here unless you have some more solid evidence. Go read the text behind Refalm's link. It's rather interesting stuff, and definitely makes me wonder about all this hate towards KKK.

[bedouin]

bedouin, How about you read the history of christianity, then tell me it's less innocent than KKK.

Certain manifestations of so-called Christianity are no less innocent than the KKK.  Coincidentally, those contemporary manifestations tend to be share many of the KKK's ideologies with regards to race and cultural imperialism.

So, the problem is that blacks don't enjoy the Klan?

Sigh.  I hate to make the "you don't understand" statement, but frankly, you do not live in the US and understand the complexities of this.  If you're a black man wandering in Mississippi Klan territory at 12 AM you're not just going to be handed some pamphlets and lectured on the merits of so-called white culture.    

Does fear towards some people make them bad people, or does the assumption that they're bad people cause the fear?

Why are you mixing two unrelated issues?  Get back to the subject.  

It would be unjust for me to fear a person of another skin color or religion, based on shaky stereotypes of what he/she believes.  It would not be unjust for me to dislike a person who willfully joined a movement with an ideology that proclaims non-whites are subhuman.

Go read the text behind Refalm's link. It's rather interesting stuff, and definitely makes me wonder about all this hate towards KKK.

I did read it -- the Klan understands public relations too.  Someone who knows nothing about them might be gullible enough to believe it.

[muzzy]

Right, I don't know situations in specific areas, I don't know how KKK operates, I don't know any single member of the klan. However, I'm not going to judge anyone just because they're members of some society. Further, I don't see anything bad about "White Pride". It sounds a lot like "Gay Pride" in some ways. To be proud of what you are, and there's nothing wrong with that.

You're making a strong assumption that KKK will, without doubt, harass the black upon sight. That's the only way I could be "mixing" unrelated issues, because that's the only way fear isn't the issue. I don't see this as "White Pride", harassment is always harassment, however I see it wrong to deny people their right to be proud of themselves, no matter what they are and who they are. Be it black, white, gay, pedo, whatever, everyone should have right to pride of who they are as long as they don't deny anyone else their rights. As of such, I believe there has to be good and fine people among KKK as well.

[Refalm]

As of such, I believe there has to be good and fine people among KKK as well.

Even if there are "good and fine" people among the KKK, they're still hateful towards people with other skin colours than themselves.
It's simply wrong to state that someone is better just because they where born with a certain skin colour.

And this is exactly what the KKK is preaching. I posted the link to show that members of the KKK are not monsters, they are psychologically deranged people.