Author Topic: blah  (Read 2041 times)

rumor

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« on: 28 January 2002, 22:39 »
Since my last post apparently produced a total brain meltdown in the usuals at this forum since no one could even muster up something like "this is nonesense, wtf" (which i guess is to be expected from you geeks who aren't aware that there is a whole world outside their rooms), i'm going to post about something closer to home but related to the original post.

Apparently you totally refuse to accept that user-friendly interface and ease of use has any importance in an OS. Apprently you're so proud of linux because it takes a lot of skill, knowledge and experience to use it. Guess what, an OS that cannot be used by someone who spends less than 14+ hours a day on a computer is a piece of shit. At that point to the user it doesn't matter that when it does run something it runs it well. This is the reason why there are no applications or drivers for linux too - a problem you yourself admit exists.

Oh and if it's easy to use for YOU obviously doesn't mean that it's easy to use. Don't even try to use this excuse, you know that a causual user cannot install linux and probably will not be able to use it, and this is a VERY important drawback which has kept linux from becoming more popular. Sure maybe it's the perfect server OS, and a perfect server admin OS, but what can it do for anyone else? What percentage of computer users are sysadmins/programmers?

I say fix the interface, find a better way to explain people wtf there are 300 versions (distros) of the same OS, streamline installation - windows-easy installation mode maybe, make it possible for a user to learn the advanced features while using the OS to some extent - means make it use a windows/some-other-*good* interface mode by default after the OS installs. Command line commands and keyboard shortcuts are great, but make it possible for an OS to be used without them "out of the box". After you acomplish all that you can start marketing it and actually begin to expand the user base. Untill then, forget it.
This, is a chemical burn.

jtpenrod

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« Reply #1 on: 29 January 2002, 03:58 »
quote:
Since my last post apparently produced a total brain meltdown in the usuals at this forum since no
          one could even muster up something like "this is nonesense, wtf"  


OK, you want thoughtful? Here's thoughtful. I dusted off and fired up my Windows partition, whence I'm writing this reply. Windows boots and now I'm looking at the desktop with the wallpaper it took me 3 GD hours to install. I didn't like any of the wallpaper His Gatesness supplied, so I added my own. It took me less than three minutes to install my own pictures on all four of my KDE desktops. Not very user-friendly, if you ask me. So I have these icons running down the left side of the screen that I can click on to launch apps. Gee, just like KDE. In the bottom, left hand corner, there's this button with a squiggly and "Start" on it; in KDE it's a silver wheel with a gold hub - only difference. I click on that, and get a menu of apps. Just like KDE... except... where's the history list? Shouldn't there be a list of my most used apps, automatically added to the menu? Oh... that's right, this is Windows. Let's do some web surfing, click on the internet dialer and connect: only difference, it doesn't say KPPP in the title bar. Select Netscape, looks exactly like it does in Linux. No difference. Lets do some file management. Start Windows Explorer. The left half of the screen shows a tree view of the file system. Here, the folder icons are yellow; in Konqueror, they're blue: only difference. I drag a file from one folder to another and drop it... wait a minute, where's the dialog box asking if I want to copy, move, or cancel? Oh that's right, silly me, I have to remember that keyboard shortcut: hold down "shift" while dragging to move the file. Close Win Explorer, I do most of my file management from the command line. Click "start" and select "MSDOS-prompt" (just like starting an xterm). OK, Windows remembered I like the full screen view. I'm not too sure how that copy command works:

C:\> man copy

Oopps! That didn't work. Got to dig out that DOS manual to look it up. Not user-friendly at all! Hell, I do that in Linux, and I get the information right there on the screen. (Now where did that #$%@!!&* DOS manual get to?)

You get the point yet?

 
quote:
I say fix the interface, find a better way to explain people wtf there are 300 versions (distros) of the
          same OS, streamline installation - windows-easy installation mode maybe, make it possible for a user
          to learn the advanced features while using the OS to some extent - means make it use a
          windows/some-other-*good* interface mode by default after the OS installs.


My answer in three words: Kay Dee Eee!
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If software can be free, why can't dolphins?

voidmain

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« Reply #2 on: 29 January 2002, 05:03 »
He's an obvious troll.  From someone who has to install many of the MS OSs and many *NIX versions I can tell you that Linux is FAR easier and faster to install than setting up NT Server (or Win98 for that matter).  *And* I don't have to reboot 40,000 times in the process.  An install from scratch on NT server and getting it up to corporate standards takes about 4 (FOUR) hours.  Linux takes about 20-30 minutes start to finish, including applying all the updates and configuring.

Sounds like this person spends 14 hours a day on an MS os.  Maybe if he tried using another OS for a while (a serious try) he might only have to spend 1 hour a day on the machine.

I haven't seen a single valid point in this post.  But like I said. A troll.  My 10 year old has very little computer experience and he has no problems getting around either OS.  Both my kids prefer Linux (albeit they have to listen to their father pacing around the house muttering "Bill Gates is the devil" all day long).  

As far as "usability" I would say that if you took someone who has never used a computer before that they would be able to navigate either desktop about the same.  It's hard to find someone who isn't "already" familiar with Windows is the problem so when something doesn't work exactly like it does in Windows they incorrectly think it is broken.  And Linux is 100 times easier to install and will install where YOU want it to, not where MS thinks it should be...

But I digress....

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: VoidMain ]

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jtpenrod

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« Reply #3 on: 29 January 2002, 08:06 »
quote:
It's hard to find someone
             who isn't "already" familiar with Windows is the problem so when something doesn't work exactly
             like it does in Windows they incorrectly think it is broken.


For me, it's gotten to the point now that when something in Windows doesn't work exactly like it does in Linux, I wonder if it's broken.  ;)

A troll he may be, however he doesn't rave and froth at the mouth. He seems reasonable, and he could influence the impressionable. There are all too many out there (and a lot who ought to know better) who won't give Linux a try simply because they assume it's too "geeky" and therefore, must be beyond them. I see ideas such as rumor's and wonder if they've *ever* seen a Linux desktop.
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If software can be free, why can't dolphins?

Calum

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« Reply #4 on: 29 January 2002, 14:40 »
the thing is, in Windows, there's a good chance that it is broken.
btw, Windows does ask you what directory to install to when you install it. Small consolation, it doesn't win any points from me just the same.

I am a total command line dimwit. I have little to no command line skills, but have used DOS more than any of the Linux command interfaces. I have to say though, that the Linux command lines always seem more helpful than dos.
You can ask for help with commands, it tells you what the problem is, when there's a problem, instead of all this trial and error "bad command or filename" crap you get in DOS, where you try the same thing 8 or 9 times, with the spaces and dots in different places before deciding that the computer would be better used as a paperweight.
BTW, i just reinstalled windows again, and it was a pain in the ass to set up too, you know, what with hunting around for the drivers, because windows detected the wrong ones, and didn't even recognise the 'plug 'n' play hardware et c. And there's another thing. Do you have to keep reinstalling Linux? i suspect you install it once, then use it until you want to install another OS. Sensible? yes. Well with windows, you have to reinstall the fucker every few months just to show it who's boss, which is a distinct pain in the arse. If you don't you very quickly get crashes and data losses and all sorts of fun stuff...
Well those are my thoughts. What you are really asking for, rumor, is that Linux and KDE be preinstalled when you buy your factory manufactured IBM straight off the shelf of your local department store, from a smiling man who wouldn't know his BIOS from his elbow.
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voidmain

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« Reply #5 on: 29 January 2002, 22:42 »
Good post, as far as having to "reinstall" Linux because something went bad wrong, I can't remember *ever* having to reinstall it in the last 10 years of using it. The closest I've come to that is sticking in a newer CD and pressing "upgrade".
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gump420

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« Reply #6 on: 29 January 2002, 23:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by rumor:
Since my last post apparently produced a total brain meltdown in the usuals at this forum since no one could even muster up something like "this is nonesense, wtf" (which i guess is to be expected from you geeks who aren't aware that there is a whole world outside their rooms), i'm going to post about something closer to home but related to the original post.

Apparently you totally refuse to accept that user-friendly interface and ease of use has any importance in an OS.



Apparently you totally refuse to accept that there ARE user-friendly OSes out there that don't crash every fucking minute.

 
quote:
Apprently you're so proud of linux because it takes a lot of skill, knowledge and experience to use it.


Apparently you're so proud of Winblows because it assumes that the user is a god-damn idiot who needs help tying his own shoelaces.

 
quote:
Guess what, an OS that cannot be used by someone who spends less than 14+ hours a day on a computer is a piece of shit. At that point to the user it doesn't matter that when it does run something it runs it well.


Guess what? An OS that MIGHT run well for a month or two before going to hell is a piece of shit. At the point to the user it pisses them off that even if the app does run it promptly crashes.

 
quote:
This is the reason why there are no applications or drivers for linux too - a problem you yourself admit exists.


Actually, given the fact that I can download literally thousands of programs to run on a *NIX box, totally free of charge, and given the fact that I have never run into a piece of hardware that wasn't at least partially supported under my current *NIX flavor at that time -- no, I don't admit this problem exists.

 
quote:
Oh and if it's easy to use for YOU obviously doesn't mean that it's easy to use. Don't even try to use this excuse, you know that a causual user cannot install linux and probably will not be able to use it, and this is a VERY important drawback which has kept linux from becoming more popular.


This MUST be why my Mom wants me to set up a Linux box for her so that she can learn *NIX; yeah, I'm sure you hit the nail right on the head with that completely bullshit comment.

 
quote:
Sure maybe it's the perfect server OS, and a perfect server admin OS, but what can it do for anyone else?


What can it do for anyone else? Everything Winblows can do and more; sure, you don't have the same selection for applications, but you know as well as I do that the end result is what matters - not the application that you use to get there.

 
quote:
What percentage of computer users are sysadmins/programmers?


What percentage of computer users are as fucking stupid as you? A depressing large number, it seems . . .

 
quote:
I say fix the interface, find a better way to explain people wtf there are 300 versions (distros) of the same OS, streamline installation - windows-easy installation mode maybe, make it possible for a user to learn the advanced features while using the OS to some extent - means make it use a windows/some-other-*good* interface mode by default after the OS installs. Command line commands and keyboard shortcuts are great, but make it possible for an OS to be used without them "out of the box". After you acomplish all that you can start marketing it and actually begin to expand the user base. Untill then, forget it.


I say, go find a big city with one of those 10+ lane streets and play in traffic until you get your sorry ass run over by a semi.
I can't get over you until you get out from under him.

Calum

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« Reply #7 on: 30 January 2002, 16:58 »
:D  (chortle chortle) Let's have a rebuttal now, rumor, that would be fun!
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Ron

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« Reply #8 on: 31 January 2002, 01:40 »
Build a decent gui for pnp people. If you want to usurp the WG then your product has to be better (more point & click) than his.  I handle the code but She Who Must Be Obeyed needs ease of use. And I'm still trying to get her to accept Linux.....
:eek:
I see dumb people
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voidmain

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« Reply #9 on: 31 January 2002, 01:58 »
Hath your pnp better half tryeth something like KDE 2.2.2 or higher, or tryeth OSX?
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Calum

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« Reply #10 on: 1 February 2002, 14:07 »
Well as you already know, VoidMain, OSX is completely hardware specific to the Mac, and completely proprietary. Unless he wants to shell out for a new computer, MacOSX is not an option.
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tobefree

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« Reply #11 on: 2 February 2002, 00:05 »
I'm a new  user to this forum.
I have to say honestly that i thought Windows was the only os.
I must admit that i have heard of Linux, but have no idea what it entails.
It sounds quite complicated, judging by the comments in this forum.

Regards

voidmain

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« Reply #12 on: 2 February 2002, 00:20 »
It is far "less" complicated if you ask me.
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runkpock

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« Reply #13 on: 2 February 2002, 06:45 »
Perhaps this will clear something up:
> Linux is not user-friendly.
It _is_ user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly and idiot friendly.

You don't have to use linux, you know. Perhaps you
should run OS X, you don't sound too bright. Linux
would eat you for lunch.

neo_x500

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« Reply #14 on: 18 February 2002, 07:16 »
That's right, Mac OS X is a great system to use, and guess what, as user friendly it actually is- it is still Linux based. But this guy did let us all fall into his trap- he was just trying to start an argument.
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