Author Topic: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft  (Read 6666 times)

worker201

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #45 on: 8 September 2005, 22:03 »
Quote from: Aloone_Jonez
Doesn't the same apply to MS Office file formats?


I think it does, but Microsoft won't release the complete specification, while Adobe has released the complete specification for PDF.  So some Office functionality and compatibility has to be guessed at, and they usually guess wrong.  That's why I use rtf for word processor docs, because rtf is the same in any program.

mobrien_12

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #46 on: 9 September 2005, 05:13 »
Quote from: KernelPanic
Closed, but an industry standard.


Incorrect.

The PDF specification is completely published and anyone can use it (read the licence).  Adobe retains control over the specification.  Thus you or I can't change it, but we can write our own software that uses it.  Adobe even allows you to use sample code in the spec.  

PDF is an open standard because all details are visible and everyone can use it:  no royalties, no stupid patent encumberances that MS is fond of, just an open standard.

I researched this when I was writing my web page.
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KernelPanic

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #47 on: 9 September 2005, 13:53 »
Perhaps some clarification is needeed here, the PDF spec is readily available at Adobe's website.
What I meant was that Adobe created and own PDF and that the format was not the result of any industry body/group/committee/thinktank.
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KernelPanic

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #48 on: 9 September 2005, 14:00 »
Quote from: Aloone_Jonez
Doesn't the same apply to MS Office file formats?


No, Microsoft are notorious for making it difficult to interoperate with their formats.
However, AFAIK, they are moving towards an XML basis for their new Office suite. This (hopefully) means that their formats will be less obfuscated and we can all enjoy better compatibility between our Office program and the guy's in Head Office.

FYI, OOo uses a compresses XML format for their file formats.
I think that if they work it right, the affinity for XML and .NET etc. in Microsoftworld can work in favour of the open competitiors.
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skyman8081

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #49 on: 9 September 2005, 21:33 »
The PDF model of openness, for me, is the ideal one.

There can be a collaboration.  but only one company controls the spec.  So there will always be one pdf format that can be used.  ever.

No forking, no "Is this the right kind of PDF", no excuses.

I like openness when it isn't used as a crutch for laziness.
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worker201

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #50 on: 9 September 2005, 21:47 »
Please provide an example of where you think openness has been used as an excuse for laziness.

skyman8081

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #51 on: 9 September 2005, 21:52 »
XFree86, vi, emacs.

And, in general, the "fix it yourself" mentality that seems to permiate a lot of projects, and GNU advocates.
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Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #52 on: 9 September 2005, 22:10 »
Good point skyman8081.

Another point that the GNU bum club fail to see is that if three companies all had significant market share and their products were all proprietary all of their file formats would be open since they'd all want to make it as easy as possible for someone to switch to their product. I believe that if it wasn't for Microsoft we wouldn't have the blind hate for all things CLO$
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

worker201

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #53 on: 9 September 2005, 22:15 »
Quote from: skyman8081
XFree86, vi, emacs.

And, in general, the "fix it yourself" mentality that seems to permiate a lot of projects, and GNU advocates.


Please expand on this.  What exactly have the developers done that makes you think they are lazy?

piratePenguin

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #54 on: 9 September 2005, 22:18 »
Quote from: skyman8081
XFree86, vi, emacs.
To me, that's just a list of programs. Please explain how these programs' "openness" makes them lazy?

Oh, and XFree86 sucks. Xorg rocks.
vi is closed. vim is open.
And GNU Emacs kicks-fucking-ass.
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piratePenguin

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #55 on: 9 September 2005, 22:26 »
Quote from: Aloone_Jonez
Good point skyman8081.

Another point that the GNU bum club fail to see is that if three companies all had significant market share and their products were all proprietary all of their file formats would be open since they'd all want to make it as easy as possible for someone to switch to their product.
How do you know?
And such a scenario will NEVER EVER happen.
Heck, it's more likely that free software does take over the market (which is very unlikely) before that scenario occurs, IMO.
And which would you prefer?
Quote from: Aloone_Jonez
I believe that if it wasn't for Microsoft we wouldn't have the blind hate for all things CLO$
"What you share with the world is what it keeps of you."
 - Noah And The Whale: Give a little love



a poem by my computer, Macintosh Vigilante
Macintosh amends a damned around the requested typewriter. Macintosh urges a scarce design. Macintosh postulates an autobiography. Macintosh tolls the solo variant. Why does a winter audience delay macintosh? The maker tosses macintosh. Beneath female suffers a double scum. How will a rat cube the heavier cricket? Macintosh calls a method. Can macintosh nest opposite the headache? Macintosh ties the wrong fairy. When can macintosh stem the land gang? Female aborts underneath macintosh. Inside macintosh waffles female. Next to macintosh worries a well.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #56 on: 10 September 2005, 04:03 »
Quote from: piratePenguin
How do you know?

Good point but I suppose I'll never know.
Think about it for a second, there are three companies, each have their own office suit, now each company wants to make it as easy as possible for people to choose their product, if their program can read their competitor's file it makes it much easier, if their format can be read by other non-competing programs then it encourages other developers to write software compatable with their program. Adobe wouldn't have made shuch a sucess of Acrobat if they hadn't made their format open, MS have only been able to keep their office formats closed and still be a sucess because they already have the main matket share.

Quote from: piratePenguin
And such a scenario will NEVER EVER happen.

I can't predict the future, no one can so it's pointless to argue about this, but I'd make the same prediction.

Quote from: piratePenguin
Heck, it's more likely that free software does take over the market (which is very unlikely) before that scenario occurs, IMO.

Well this probably won't happen either but I also agree  only because Linux has a higher share than Mac OS and  there is no third competitor.
Quote from: piratePenguin
And which would you prefer?

I don't know, free software sounds good but I'm not convinced it'll be good quality, I'd rather have good proprietry software rather than cheap and nasty free shit, which is why I've chosen Opera over Firefox.

Quote from: piratePenguin
I doubt it.

If Microsoft weren't in power I bet you no one would really care about open vs closed source. When was the last time anyone gave a shit about whether a car company released the blue prints for their latest car? Has anyone  really been discouraged from buying a TV just because the evil company hasn't given them the schematics? Anyway this debate is pointless since we're talking about a hyporthectical situation that doesn't exist.

Quote from: piratePenguin
Microsoft doesn't come into the equation, at least for me.

Oh yes it does, there's your bank and all the other businesses you rely on that use MS product, not to mention the rest of the economy you also depend on. :p

Quote from: piratePenguin
It's about right and wrong.

That depends on you point of view, so far the only company to cause any harm by means of proprietary software is Microsoft, for this reason I'm anit-MS but not anti-proprietary software. I do encourage sharing and I don't take the moral high ground an accuse anyone who chooses not to share of being evil.
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

worker201

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #57 on: 10 September 2005, 04:09 »
I thought you two argument whores left your baggage in the Linux zone.

Aloone_Jonez

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #58 on: 10 September 2005, 04:11 »
:confused:
This is not a Windows help forum, however please do feel free to sign up and agree or disagree with our views on Microsoft.

Oh and FUCKMicrosoft! :fu:

worker201

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Re: Massachusetts set to switch off Microsoft
« Reply #59 on: 10 September 2005, 04:16 »
http://www.microsuck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9566
starting at about the 15th post.

The way you two go at it makes it impossible for anyone else to contribute, and accomplishes nothing.  I really really really do want to know what problems Skyman has with XFree86 - he hasn't told me via IM yet.  So don't destroy this thread with your shouting matches.