Windows Sucks

[Aloone_Jonez]

I've never ran anti-virus on my system, and I don't use a firewall. Plus, I use IE for web browsing. So, I've configured stuff a little, but how come I've never gotten any of these viruses you speak of?

I have no idea what you guys are doing to break your systems, other than intentionally installing malware (or being tricked by exes that have folder icons or other silly stuff). I installed my current w2k installation in 2000, and it's still working. Nearly five year old installation, and stuff still works great. I can only conclude that either you guys have bad hardware, or the difference is in the user.

The difference is you disable scripting, but I would rather have benefit of being able to enjoy the web to the full.

Oh, and regarding third party software. I suspect you guys mainly use non-GNU software too. Your web browser, your mail client, your chat clients, text editors, etc... They're all from outside of the GNU project, third party software.

I think you've mis-unsterstood me. For a start I mainly use GNU software the only non-GNU thing on my system is Winwows and anti-virus. I don't have a problem with using closed source sofwtware per-say I've used Opera before. I was saying that Microsoft should provide and operating system that doesn't require any 3rd party software (meaning extra software that you have to buy) to make it secure.

[muzzy]

I think you've mis-unsterstood me. For a start I mainly use GNU software the only non-GNU thing on my system is Winwows and anti-virus. I don't have a problem with using closed source sofwtware per-say I've used Opera before. I was saying that Microsoft should provide and operating system that doesn't require any 3rd party software (meaning extra software that you have to buy) to make it secure.

I think you've misunderstood me too. When I say GNU software, I mean the GNU project which includes the GNU system tools and compiler suite and such. This doesn't include GPL'd software, it's not GNU software. A lot of the stuff on GNU/Linux systems is non-GNU software on top of the GNU system. I count that as "third party".

Now, there's a lot of good freeware software out there, but you have to download it all. That's a hassle. If Microsoft allowed third parties to create Windows distributions in the same fashion that linux distributions exist, there would be a lot less hassle. Right now, Microsoft is having a copyright enforced monopoly to its own product, and I can't say it's a good thing for anyone else.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Ok, I'll explain my point again as you've missed it completely.

You obviosly don't understand the whole party thing, confusing I must admit. :confused:

To me a 3rd party sortware is any software you have to have from a 3rd party other than the supplier of the operating system, thus:

I'm the 1st party.

Microsoft is the 2nd party.

The 3rd would be Symatic, McAfee the licence is unimportant, it could even be freeware like the AVG anti-virus software I use.

My point is you should be able to run a secure Microsoft OS without having to install any 3rd party software. I should be able to browse the Internet with scripting enabled without having to rely on any other software apart from Windows it's self to keep my computer secure. 3rd party software should be non-essential for the running of the system.

[Calum]

what you both mean or don't mean is irrelevant.

actually, you do mean the same thing, but you have both got different ideas of who the second party is. to muzzy, it is the organisation responsible for creatingthe system (microsoft, Gnu's Not Unix, apple, Be corp et cetera) and to Jones, it is the organisation responsible for *distributing* the software (Red Hat, microsoft, debian, apple et cetera)

both are reasonable but instead of telling each other you don't understand each other, just decide whether or not you can agree on a definition, and if not, come to some sort of compromise (because if you don't agree on who the second party is, then it is very likely you aren't even disagreeing with each other).

unless of course you're just enjoying the disagreement, in which case, carry on!

[Aloone_Jonez]

what you both mean or don't mean is irrelevant.

What I mean is plain and simple, if you want to run Microsoft Windows then you shouldn't need anything other than Microsoft Windows to have a secure system.

actually, you do mean the same thing, but you have both got different ideas of who the second party is. to muzzy, it is the organisation responsible for creatingthe system (microsoft, Gnu's Not Unix, apple, Be corp et cetera) and to Jones, it is the organisation responsible for *distributing* the software (Red Hat, microsoft, debian, apple et cetera)

Yes that's what I mean by the 2nd party, I didn't mention Redhat Linux or Mac OS because I was reffering to Windows so I only mentioned Microsoft as they party responsible for supplying the operating system I use.

both are reasonable but instead of telling each other you don't understand each other, just decide whether or not you can agree on a definition, and if not, come to some sort of compromise (because if you don't agree on who the second party is, then it is very likely you aren't even disagreeing with each other).

I certain that I'm correct on my definitions of the phrases 1st, 2nd & 3rd party.

unless of course you're just enjoying the disagreement, in which case, carry on!

Don't worry I'm enjoying it.

[muzzy]

Yea, Aloone is saying that he wants everything in one CD, and he wants the system to kick ass after he has installed it. He says Windows doesn't make this possible. However, the Linux distributions contain third party software along with them, so you can't really compare the two. Yeah, you can get linux cd that does magic and has all sorts of great software. You can get windows cd to do the same, too, but it's illegal, and it's called warez. Some of the warez windows distributions are actually better than what you can find in the store. Significantly so.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Yea, Aloone is saying that he wants everything in one CD, and he wants the system to kick ass after he has installed it.

Well if Windows is supposed to be akick ass operating system that should be the case.

He says Windows doesn't make this possible.

Not in its current state as you still have to buy anti-virus software form a 3rd party to make it secure.

However, the Linux distributions contain third party software along with them, so you can't really compare the two. Yeah, you can get linux cd that does magic and has all sorts of great software.

My Knoppix CD contains lots of software, but it's all being distributed by the same organisation. You can't really compare Windows to Linux in this case because the licence is different, sure a Linux distribution can contain as much freely distributable software as is possible from as many parties as possible some even contain propriety software under a licence.

You can get windows cd to do the same, too, but it's illegal, and it's called warez. Some of the warez windows distributions are actually better than what you can find in the store. Significantly so.

So you can get pirate Windows with virus chacker and all can you?

Yet again you fail to understand that Microsoft should inculde an anti-Virus program with Windows. People still have to buy anti-Virus from a 3rd party to keep their system secure, and this is unacceptable. If Microsoft made their shitty OS secure in the first place people wouldn't have to buy any 3rd party software simply to run their system.

1st party = me, or company using the product  wheter it be Windows, Mac OS, BSD, Linux ect.

2nd party = product supplyier whether it be Microsoft or Redhat, Macintosh or anyone else.

3rd party = antivirus made by another company other than the one you aquired the operating system from - ie. a 3rd party.

You should only buy software from a 3rd party to do other things that are non-essential to the running of the system, like Opera - a nice web browser or star office for college work. An anti-virus should be unnecessary, and if needed at all it should come with the operating system which is distributed by the 2nd party ie. Microsoft in the case with Windows.

Before responding muzzy, please verify you a agree we me on the definitions of the terms 1st 2nd and 3rd party or we won't get anywhere.

[BobTheHob]

Yea, Aloone is saying that he wants everything in one CD, and he wants the system to kick ass after he has installed it. He says Windows doesn't make this possible. However, the Linux distributions contain third party software along with them, so you can't really compare the two. Yeah, you can get linux cd that does magic and has all sorts of great software. You can get windows cd to do the same, too, but it's illegal, and it's called warez. Some of the warez windows distributions are actually better than what you can find in the store. Significantly so.

Oh, then I wonder why I can do a minimal install of FreeBSD with no gui or any third party software. No configuration after installation, yet, with security higher than windows ever will be even with third party software on the win box. About the only way for the windows security to usurp the BSD boxes security would be to take it off the net. You can say all you wan't, but windows will never ever have as good of security as any *nix.

[Orethrius]

About the only way for the windows security to usurp the BSD boxes security would be to take it off the net.

But then, that would be the key to 100% network security (notice I won't use *physical* for something like this, someone can still access it locally).  

[Aloone_Jonez]

Windows could be as secure as BSD, if you used a BSD firewall.

[Jenda]

All you people are completely off topic.

My point?

Windows Sucks...

[muzzy]

Anti-virus isn't a software, it's a service. Next you'll be bitching that you can't get network connectivity without paying to third party, either! Boo hoo.

Windows doesn't need antivirus to be secure.
Windows doesn't need third party firewall to be secure.

Windows works just fine out of the box, as long as you're installing a version with latest service pack and so on.

Anyway, if you define "third party" as in "Separate download", we indeed won't be getting anywhere. Even though Redhat and others distribute software, they haven't made it and it's not their software. They just have the right to redistribute it.

Now, if you're trying to make this issue bigger than it is and say it affects Windows negatively, there's nothing to discuss. In my opinion, you just can't compare the two. If you're saying that Microsoft's monopoly on their own OS is a bad thing, we can discuss that. I'd indeed love it if people could make their own Windows installation CDs with loads of software on them. This would put different specific distributions comparable again.

Windows as an operating system kicks ass and wins linux in most tasks severely. The problem here is that you're comparing apples to oranges, comparing GNU system loaded with shitloads of third party software to a Microsoft operating system with no third party software. Obviously, if you choose what to compare to what and under what terms, you can make anything win or lose upon will. What's the point?

[BobTheHob]

Anti-virus isn't a software, it's a service. Next you'll be bitching that you can't get network connectivity without paying to third party, either! Boo hoo.

Windows doesn't need antivirus to be secure.
Windows doesn't need third party firewall to be secure.

Windows works just fine out of the box, as long as you're installing a version with latest service pack and so on.

Anyway, if you define "third party" as in "Separate download", we indeed won't be getting anywhere. Even though Redhat and others distribute software, they haven't made it and it's not their software. They just have the right to redistribute it.

Now, if you're trying to make this issue bigger than it is and say it affects Windows negatively, there's nothing to discuss. In my opinion, you just can't compare the two. If you're saying that Microsoft's monopoly on their own OS is a bad thing, we can discuss that. I'd indeed love it if people could make their own Windows installation CDs with loads of software on them. This would put different specific distributions comparable again.

Windows as an operating system kicks ass and wins linux in most tasks severely. The problem here is that you're comparing apples to oranges, comparing GNU system loaded with shitloads of third party software to a Microsoft operating system with no third party software. Obviously, if you choose what to compare to what and under what terms, you can make anything win or lose upon will. What's the point?

You have selective hearing apparently, either that, or your really stupid. WINDOWS MINIMAL INSTALL IS LESS SECURE THAN *NIX MINIMAL INSTALL, NO FUCKING THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE. *nix command only, no gui, no firewall enabled. There, maybe you heard that.

[muzzy]

And how do you define "secure"? If you're going to pick your favourite *nix, can I also pick my favourite Win32? We could compare plain Windows 2003 server after mere windowsupdate to any of your nix systems, you declare what defines "secure". How about that? Name your OS and name the method of measurement.

[BobTheHob]

And how do you define "secure"? If you're going to pick your favourite *nix, can I also pick my favourite Win32? We could compare plain Windows 2003 server after mere windowsupdate to any of your nix systems, you declare what defines "secure". How about that? Name your OS and name the method of measurement.

OpenBSD 3.6 CD install, no update shit going on, who said you could update. Oh well, even if you did update, it wouldent matter. Oh yea, you can turn on the 2003 firewall, I don't care, but I'm leaving mine off for fun. You can put norton corporate on there too if ya want. But I'm gonna stick with a default install, no ports or add-ons. Actually I'll probably install Xorg and gnome so I can play Monkey-Bubble, its fucking awesome btw. Actually, I'll make you a deal, if I can enable my software firewall. You can install all the security apps you can on a 03' datacenter box with 64 Itanium procs, 62 of the procs will be devoted to the security applications. Oh, and take the security from any angle you want.